Top 10 most powerful characters in Marvel and DC

super list.

How wonderful, hajun fodderize them all

For DC:
0 -The Presence
1 -Elaine Belloc
2 -The Great Darkness
3 -Spectre Oversoul / The Source
4 -Tom Taylor
5 -Pralaya (True Form)
6 -Synnar The Demiurge
7 -Lucifer Morningstar / Michael Demiurge
8 -Rita Farr (Milk Wars)
9 -The Writer
10 -Overvoid

For Marvel:
0 -The Fulcrum (Jack Kirby) / Excelsior Hulk
1 -Queen of Nevers
2 -Thanos (Astral Regulator)
3 -The One Above All
4 -The One Below All
5 -Beyonder (Pre-Retcon)
6 -Divine Creator
7 -Nyx (House of Ideas) / Vision (House of Ideas)
8 -The Dreamer
9 -White Phoenix of The Crown
10 -Oblivion (True Form)

how can toaa be third and beyonder (pr.) fourth

the fulcrum is not an aspect of jack kirby, the fulcrum is an entity that exists because of cosmic balance,
The celestials serve him

Pray tell, @BigKahuna , what makes all of the DC and Marvel multiverse's fodder?

Both got no boundless characters and the nut-huggers wank em to oblivion 🤣 like fr the guy called THE ONE ABOVE ALL can’t even beat Thanos lmao and the presence got his ass killed 😂😂

Then what universes aren't "fodder" in your opinion?

All the others!

Lmao keep nut-hugging marvel you fanboy get Thor’s nuts outta your mouth 😁 the whole verse is fodder so is dc

@Bigkahuna But Thor is hotter than any dc character.

Gaywad

Thor >>> all of cringe dc characters

Bruh both companies are total trash 🤣🤣 I’m surprised you can talk with daddy goldilocks rod so far down your throat

toaa way outclass the beyonder lol

brother this list random bro I know TOAA and pre recton beyonder both are equal

🤦🏼‍♀️

😑

TOAA below the presence?

Protege duplicated TOAA's powers, and if you have an equal then you are NOT omnipotent



I know what your going to say, The Presence also has an equal which is GEB. Let me explain this one: GEB was fused and absorbed by The Presence himself so GEB was only nigh-omnipotent, nigh-omniscient, and nigh omnipresent. Not only that, but The Presence is the writer of DC just as Grant Morrison portrayed The Presence as the writer in one of the Animal Man series found in this picture:




Now I know what your going to say, TOAA is the writer too when he took the form as Jack Kirby. Wrong! TOAA's name was never mentioned once during the Jack Kirby scene so no he isn't the writer. The Presence however represents the Judeo-Christian God of DC just like our real life God, so when Crafty went up to Heaven in the Animal Man series, he met God (AKA The Presence) However he was holding a paint brush along wearing a classic watch who looked like a human being that wrote things, so The Presence is the writer but TOAA is not.

TOAA has no equal. Marvel is a bigger verse than DC.

Actually, that is false. Looking it up on both Bing and Google would say the exact same thing I would. I admit it, DC can be terrible with action movies, but have you ever thought about the old animated TV shows of DC? Back in the 1900's, DC was massive, more massive than Marvel today. Another reason DC is better than Marvel is because the massive impact it has had on society. One good example of this is Wonder Woman. A large reason why Wonder Woman was created and published in 1941 was because of World War II. She was made to support the allies, and inspire the people during the war. DC totally stomps Marvel when it comes to animation. If Warner Brothers would play their cards with the action movies, they will easily be more successful than Marvel and they are more successful regarding the new Superman Movie. 100% on rotten tomatoes but I don't think Marvel ever scored that. There are more DC comics published than Marvel comics as well. Marvel comics can’t even be in the vicinity of DC’s comics in terms of quality and content. DC’s superheroes are world famous whereas Marvel had no character of high standing before the Avengers film gave revived the dead characters. Warner Bros. and DC comics created and sold much superior merchandise compared to Marvel. DC made a lot more money by selling action figures, clothing, etc. Again, going back to the animated series of DC, we are yet to see a top quality animation film or an animated TV series from Marvel, whereas, DC has been churning out favorites since the 1990s. Justice League animated series is easily rated among the best-animated cartoons of all time. DC has much more of an impact to the world than Marvel because Marvel is just too overrated and never gives a great understanding within the plot of a story or movie. DC has a collection of infinite universes whereas Marvel, however, has only one Multiverse. And that Multiverse is quite finite as we have seen when Franklin Richards couldn't create anymore universes once he reached a certain number. So not only is Marvel Multiverse finite but apparently there is only one Multiverse.

@EnDico 1.Ok stop this memes. First of all scathan defeated protege , and one above all>>>scathan. Amd second thing is that's not true toaa. That's an avatar of toaa. True toaa is made up of every single writer/editor/ reader from the real world , , , , , , so , basically every marvel comic reader, editor , writer are one above all.
2. "Now I know what your going to say, TOAA is the writer too when he took the form as Jack Kirby. Wrong! TOAA's name was never mentioned once during the Jack Kirby scene so no he isn't the writer."- In the Jack kirby scene Jack kirby said , "The mystery intrigutes me" . , and the mystery intrigutes toaa. , so with this it is proved that was toaa.

"The Presence is the writer of DC just as Grant Morrison portrayed The Presence as the writer in one of the Animal Man series found in this picture , The Presence however represents the Judeo-Christian God of DC just like our real life God, so when Crafty went up to Heaven in the Animal Man series, he met God (AKA The Presence) However he was holding a paint brush along wearing a classic watch who looked like a human being that wrote things, so The Presence is the writer but TOAA is not."- My ass. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Guess what https://tenor.com/view/are-you-fuckin-with-me-bad-santa-mad-angry-gif-16663797 , First, the writer itself got roflstomp by bestiamorphs and itself within limbo , , , , dc's metafiction is trash and writer who is grant morrison's fictional representation is another fodder. And also toaa has direct statements of representing every writer/editor/ reader from real world. And in your scan no where is stated presence is writer. In your scan it was shown presence holding a brush which is headass. Even gwenpool has more better feats than fodder presence , , , in all of those scans gwenpool was shown even above panels. Btw , presence is shaped by some external forces , and those external forces are human's dream confirmed by mike carey and in sandman issue 18. , , , , and this is supported when morpheus said all gods begin from his realm https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5877888-sandman%2030%20gods%20are%20born%20and%20die%20in%20his%20realm.jpg , so presrnce being the writer is debunked here. And for your kind information vertigo is canon https://drive.google.com/file/d/167lyCBhPgfEHRqrazqnJN7f1t8Ydq88B/view?usp=drivesdk

Again sea of brahma is beyond presence where even lucifer can go , even ellaine belloc can hide things from presence , and even blight is above presence , , so keep living with your butt hurled theory that presence can face toaa. He will get murdered by superflow tiers. Presence is hyped too much.

You're one of the most immature people i've ever come across. Also your whole point about the Writer being beat by a beastomorph and being in limbo was already debunked. Not only is that just the avatar of the writer, but he wrote for him to get attacked. It was part of the story he was writing. It even says "Writer gets attacked" before it happens. Maybe try to read your scans, kid. GM choosing to show up in limbo doesn't mean he's limited to it.

@Mr_Incognito You are the most embracing person i have ever encountered in the entire history. Nobody has ever debunked my claim that writer got obliterated by bestiamorphs and exists within limbo. That's a fax. Also in the screen of writer's computer we saw what has writer written there. Also there is no proof like toaa that writer was using aspects and since this is a fictional representation of writer not the real world he is bounded by narratives. Also here is tge scan ," , in the scan no where is mentioned writer is attacked like you said. "Maybe try to read your scans, kid. GM choosing to show up in limbo doesn't mean he's limited to it."- Naruto uzumaki. This is my discord name. Debate me over there or shut the f*ck up.

Heis not bounded my narratives. The Writer represents all writers in DC who wrote the first story on the Overvoid. TOAA is also a fictional representation, so I fail to see your point. "Werebeast attacking writer" lol he said it before it happened since he was the one who wrote for it to happen. Not only do I not have discord, but I wouldn't debate you on there even if I did. All you do is cuss people out and call them retards. You're lucky you haven't been banned yet.

"Heis not bounded my narratives. The Writer represents all writers in DC who wrote the first story on the Overvoid. TOAA is also a fictional representation, so I fail to see your point. "Werebeast attacking writer" lol he said it before it happened since he was the one who wrote for it to happen. Not only do I not have discord, but I wouldn't debate you on there even if I did. All you do is cuss people out and call them retards. You're lucky you haven't been banned yet."- so you again got triggered. Show me the scan of writer representing all writers not vsbattles wiki. Also toaa is not only fictional representation. He represents real world writers, readers , and editors. He is not an entity who can be defeated. If you read marvel comics you are toaa. I read marvel comics so i am also toaa. Toaa is not really a character. I was also trying to say same. This is fictional representation of writer. This is not real grant morrison. "The writer" character is a mere fictional representation of grant morrison. He can't controll stories so he is really bounded by narratives. Also this is true "The writer"-exists within limbo and is limited to it. Btw, since you can't debate so i am not wasting my time. Best of luck my boy.

What you just described for TOAA? That's exactly what the Writer is for DC. All DC stories are under the control of the writer, and all of DC he views as just a sheet of paper. It's not just a fictional GM. And yes he absolutely can control stories. That's exactly what he was doing in animal man. YOU are the one wasting MY time with your ignorant and idiotic arguments.

"What you just described for TOAA? That's exactly what the Writer is for DC. All DC stories are under the control of the writer, and all of DC he views as just a sheet of paper. It's not just a fictional GM. And yes he absolutely can control stories. That's exactly what he was doing in animal man. You are the one wasting MY time with your ignorant and idiotic arguments."- I described fax for toaa. He represents real world , writer, editor, reader. The writer is not same. Also all stories are under control of real writers like grant morrison, greg rucha , scott synder. Not the fictional representation of grant. Also he was controlling story in animal man because real grant morrison wanted him to do that. "The writer" himself did not do it. This is just like cas. He survived the hyper story because it was grant morrison's story and ge wanted him to do that. But that does not mean he is most powerful and can slaughter whole fiction. Also since you can not provide scans for writer embodying all writers so get out.

The Writer, also known as Grant Morrison, among numerous other names, is quite simply the writer of DC Comics and Vertigo, as manifested in the fictional reality.

Believed to be the entity which drew DC Comics on the blank page that is the Overmonitor, The Writer is DC's true supreme being. To him or her, reality and it's inhabitants are just stories characters that can be shaped into whatever he desires them to be, and should he or she become unsatisfied with the current state of creation, it can all be easily altered through a retcon.

Being completely beyond all stories and hierarchies within DC, The Writer is all-powerful and completely unknowable from the perspectives of his or her characters. Likewise, no character can comprehend the complete Writer, instead of only being capable of interacting with representations. Thus while multiple writers of of differing ages, genders, and tastes may manifest in DC to interact with and affect their creations, they are all only aspects of a collective Writer responsible for all stories.


Literally exists in the metafictional real world.

Here's GM himself confirming the first story was drawn on the overvoid against its will by the ink of the writer.

https://characterrealms.fandom.com/wiki/The_Writer_(DC_Comics)
https://omniversal-battlefield.fandom.com/wiki/The_Writer_(DC_Comics)
https://marvel-dc.fandom.com/wiki/The_Writer

All of these list him as boundless lmao so your bad interpretation means nothing.

@Mr_Incognito Good copying from vsbattles. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Writer , btw , read you scan again in the 2nd scan it is mentioned this , so writer is within limbo in comic book. Again , if he is in real world still does not matter. By this marvel's earth -1218 is real world , so with this every residents of earth 1218 is on the level of writer right?🙈

Superman beyond issue 1 : The bleed can't be hold or kept.
Superman in issue 2 : Monitors were wrong. It can be kept or hold. This is a good reason why we should ignore grant morrison tbh.

@Galactus @Ezio @Akhilpdx This guy is very toxic and he isn't adding anything to the site except for cussing people out. I'd suggest doing something about it.

@Tahsin According to Marvel's wiki: "Earth-1218 is the designation given to our reality, where super-heroes and other super-powered beings don't physically exist." Lol so you just posted the first thing you saw without even looking it up. "so with this every residents of earth 1218 is on the level of writer right?🙈" No because no heroes even exist lmao.

@EnDico That's just... very wrong

@Mr_Incognito I'm glad someone else notices how terribly annoying @Tahsin is. I'm surprised he hasn't been muted yet honestly.

@Mr_Incognito and @Savage, I agree with you. I'm also tired of people only voting for the verses they like and not the one who wins.

I agree @Pedrof but the thing is when it comes to Star Wars, the characters you put them against are out of their league. It seems like you're trolling based on some of the claims you make about Star Wars characters.

Star Wars is one of the most underrated verses. Some users on this site are editing SW characters, and putting low stats when I gave proof that they deserve much higher stats. For example, DE Sidious was going to consume the entire multiverse, and 'someone' put tier 5. Also that someone put tier 5 on Abeloth and Abeloth's Avatar.
An Avatar of Abeloth was stated to be 12 times more powerful than GM Luke, Darth Krayt, Sarasu Taalon and some other jedi and sith who were on the fight together and she is tier 5. In my opinion that Avatar of Abeloth is low hyperversal.

I don't know why some people think that Star Wars characters are weak, fortunately not everyone.

@Mr_Incognito The most I can do myself is delete toxic comments which you know, I'm gonna do at some point. The moment it starts to mess up debates is probably when people will learn that it's not a good way to debate.

@Tahsin You do need to take it down a couple notches ngl because eventually, you're gonna get muted for it or like I said, comments might start disappearing.

@Pedrof Incognito's right. Some of the fights you make are unintentionally spiteful towards your own favorite franchise.

@Tashin you really do need to step up your game here. Not everyone on this chat is gonna agree with your statement regarding The Writer being greater than the TOAA. In my opinion, Marvel is equivalent to DC regarding nigh omnipotent foes unless someone disagrees with my statement between the power scaling between Marvel and DC verses. Yes I get it, the TOAA is the strongest being there is throughout comic history, with respect to The Presence being the strongest for DC. Honestly I find it tedious when those say the writer is stronger than the TOAAA because a majority of comic book fans would say the same thing as if they truly believe the writer such as Neil Gaiman, Stan Lee, Jack Kirby or Grant Morrison tops all Marvel's and DC's strongest characters. To be fair, I would say ignore the writers statement and go with actual comic book characters so that the chat would make sense instead of those constantly spitting out the writers being the most powerful characters. In fact, the writers should not be mentioned a lot in this forum for the most powerful characters for both Marvel and DC, because to be honest I get sick and tired of toxic users saying too much about The Writers and focusing less on actual comic book characters.

The purpose of this forum is to discuss strongest Marvel and DC characters. When you guys discuss and go off the edge too much about The Writers, it makes the forum a lot more complicating and unfair, unlike those like to enjoy discussing comic book characters, not the writers. No offense, I don't want to mess up this debate here, however due to more writers statement (which I consider outdated and off topic to this specific forum), it would be wiser to not go off in a completely different direction about the Writers so that we don't get too exhausted to constantly complain and get extremely bored to more useless statements about Marvel, DC, and Vertigo writers.

This is for my interference only, discussing too much about the writers comparison actually needs to stop since it wastes more time in these kinds of forum. @Tashin you specifically need to stop whining and acting like you know everything because none of us are interested in your opinion. I hate to say this but if you didn't post a gigantic discussion regarding the writers comparison, none of this toxic debate would ever have happened, in which all of us would prefer in a satisfying manner. I am trying to help you guys, however for these types of toxic comments and debates posted anywhere on this site is not gonna change the fact that this site will worsen, become less peaceful, users having a terrible relations to each other, and become a rather unfriendly environment if more of these types of conversations happen continuously.

@AkhilPDX thank you for sharing your thoughts. I absolutely respect your statement regarding some of the users on this huge conservation which shouldn't even extend that long.

"Tahsin According to Marvel's wiki: "Earth-1218 is the designation given to our reality, where super-heroes and other super-powered beings don't physically exist." Lol so you just posted the first thing you saw without even looking it up. "so with this every residents of earth 1218 is on the level of writer right?🙈" No because no heroes even exist lmao."-The entire point is wrong.

"This guy is very toxic and he isn't adding anything to the site except for cussing people out. I'd suggest doing something about it."-Wrong. I was just replying @EnDico all the time. You first started this nitpicking when i was not even debating you. That endico dude even abuses people whoever votes toaa in toaa vs presence so i just replied to him. Is it really that bad? I told you to debate me over discord but you did not. So is it really my fault. Last time i am asking you. Show me a proper scan of writer embodying all writers not vsbattle or omniversal wiki.

@AkhilPDX Ok i understood. Yeah i have been very rude here. I am sorry @EnDico @Mr_Incognito @Savage @SSpiderGwen @Lazada @R165 for my bad behaviour including you @Akhil . Btw, you should probably do something to EnDico . This guy calls people retards too.

@Mr_Incognito I cant see anything notable from him here right now but you can notify me for any bad comment.
@Pedrof It is" Top 10 most powerful characters in Marvel and DC" and you wrote comment about powers of Star Wars characters, As long as you are obsessed with Star Wars, you can not object to the obsession of others in Marvel or DC. Tahsin and lots of users do exactly what you do, I cant stop you from doing that, I cant stop Tahsin from doing that and I cant stop who voteed Daredevil against Sentry.

@Tahsin so now you finally want to admit that you were toxic. Thank the Lords. Hope you can be a better user on this site now. We all would appreciate that.

@SSpderGwen Thanks for forgiving me for my bad behaviour.

@Ezio, I didn't bring Star wars to this topic, Mr_Incognito did, I was talking in general when I said that people vote for the verses they like.

@Tahsin I'm glad you admitted your mistakes. I don't hold grudges or anything, so it's all good.

Good list

thats very old video everything would change in 7 years

Literally everyone you named from 7-10 are more powerful than Oblivion.

Yes, but he isn't the writer himself. The Writer (DC) is literally Grant Morrison, it even says it in the Animal Man comic. He exists outside of fiction and has all of the writers inside of him. TOAA is a REPRESENTATION of the writers, not the writers themselves. TOAA was created to represent the writers, but he isn't outside fiction and is still bound by how the writers choose to write him to represent them. The Writer (Grant) is the actual writer himself, not a representation.

There are so many characters stronger than LT

@Incognito He actually is. TOAA made every Marvel comic and story and is every writer, editor, reader, and the supreme creator of Marvel itself. It doesn't make a difference how strong a character is, because The-One-Above-All will always be above Marvel and every book, character, location, narrative, story, and all dimensional space. In Infinity Conflict, The One Above All was stated multiple times to be the embodiment of all editors and writers and Jim Starlin talked about how he created the Infinity series, including the characters in it, making him the true One-Above-All. Also, Jack Kirby stated he had a collaborator and every Marvel writer was part of the process and in Ultimates, TOAA was treated as a blank page.

He doesn't exist in the real world like The Writer does. The Writer is beyond fiction and is Grant Morrison himself. A real writer is above a representation of the writers.

Actually, Grant Morrison isn't The Writer. He just took that form when he made his appearance in Animal Man. The Writer doesn't only represent Grant Morrison, but every writer of DC Comics. The "real world" you're referring to in this case exists as a form of metafiction and all of DC Comics is considered a "fake real world".

Yes he is. In that exact comic it is specifically stated that Morrison is. Morrison is the Writer with all of the other writers inside of him. He transcends fiction. He is above the fiction that TOAA operates in.

Maybe, but Grant Morrison admitted he didn't create Animal Man or his family and he was more of a demiurgic power.



Here, he states that he doesn't write everything but only a couple of comics.


This was where he was experiencing a writer's block and he didn't know what they both were going to say.


Later on he talks about new writers and how that was his last story.


He goes over the others that helped with the comic.

Now do you see what I mean? This is an amazing comic btw.

Would canonicity even matter on that scale?

I'm not counting them because of it, and even if I did, lucifer and I debunked those stories so it's hard to say those tiers would make it as high as we thought before

Oh okay. That makes sense.

My man really said Oblivion is more powerful than Michael lol. Michael is equal to Lucifer, and even if feats say otherwise, no way is Oblivion more powerful than Michael. And you forgot about yourself (Empty Hand). And didn't you say Mandrakk > Oblivion?

@windshadow everyone on the list is at least high outerversal if not tier 0 (there are certain extents of tier 0), empty hand doesn't have any scaling that would put him remotely close to any of that, and mandrakk would only maybe beat an M body of oblivion but the true form of oblivion would casually blink mandrakk out of existence, Oblivion is one of the highest scaling in Marvel's Cosmology, when everything is destroyed in marvel it's all sent to oblivion, for example, CIH Destroyed everything within the 8th & 9th cosmos and sent it to oblivion, beings like the shaper of worlds who is boundless in form, TWSAIS who feast off the concept of stories, Multi eternity who embodies infinite planes of existence, and other beings all exist within oblivion, oblivion would encompass all those beings and transcend them all, now if he would beat Michael is debatable, but I'd say because of how high he scales in the marvel cosmology, and the fact many tier 0 beings are encompassed by oblivion points towards him being above Michael, and Lucifer definitely scales above Michael in power

Only cosmological structures within the marvel Cosmology beyond oblivion is TOAA's love, TOAA's heaven, TOBA's realm & The house of ideas

And the Divine Creator. Also: https://www.superherodb.com/90-400975/ (you voted Empty Hand). And 'CIH' is an abbreviation for what? Empty Hand via scaling is powerful af. Ultra Comics, (he's kinda weird: he's a comic book, every comic fan, however created by us as well) and is part of Earth 33 (our real world in DC) and is powered by the Ultra Gem (Imagination). He then gets one shot by Gentry, who consumed US, and is a meta-concept BEYOND our real world (just like Oblivion stated he is above our world too). However, the Empty Hand is actually the Gentry's SUPERIOR, so via scaling, should be as powerful, if not more powerful than Oblivion. Not only that, as he's equal to or more powerful than the Over Monitor who represents the paper, like Oblivion. Also where is Pralaya and Mother Night? They are both beings who are embodiments of Nothingness, and are both the emptiness from which the entire Multiverse is born, and to which it always returns (like Oblivion).

Other things to notice: Current Eternity actually encompasses the Far-Shore (which I believe is Oblivion) but I may just be mixing things up, and Oversoul spectre merged with the void beyond all voids (so I believe it should be a void "beyond" Oblivion). Also where is the Great Evil Beast and Fulcrum? The Endless should be up there because they, like Oblivion, are metaconcepts, and exist in the real world (and are the daughters and sons of Mother Night). Also The Beyonders, who are limited by nothing within reason, and those beyond them, meaning they could be more powerful than Oblivion (said by @LordTracer).

The divine creator is an aspect of the TOAA and is non canon trash, he would be above oblivion if it wasn't for the fact he is not canon to Marvel's actual cosmology, that vote was a long as hell time ago, and CIH is am abbreviation for "Cosmic Immortal Hulk", Empty hand is overrated, his best "feat" is erasing the multiverse-2 which is equal to the standard multiverse map, ultra comics is also a very debunkable story, Batman saw ultra comics as fiction and so did convergence Brainiac, ultra comics being a living comicbook is really nothing, and oh God my man's bringing up real world fourth-wall breaking crap, the gentry are 5th dimensional imps which all they were doing was weakening multiverse 2, they're bleed tier literally, the ultragem only has the powers of the readers minds through fourth wall Metafictional bs, but it isn't even accurate, and the empty hand created the gentry so he scales above 5th dimensional imps, so impressive, the Nexus of all realities scales below the superflow and already encompasses infinite levels of stories and dream, it is every single reality in marvel connected as well and it scales below the superflow which is below the neutral zone which is nothing to multi eternity which is nothing to oblivion, the overvoid would transcend empty hand to a platonic degree, he literally was shown go exist within the overvoid, not even that tho even levels below the overvoid, mandrakk and TR were infinitesimal and platonically transcended by the overvoid, it's outside them and EH, EH would be nothing to it, idk what you mean by that, Pralaya and mother night are nothing to oblivion, Pralaya for one has a major lack of feats and appearances and could get defeated by world tree swamp thing by just reversing creation into her nothingness, mother night is the embodiment of space within creation, creation is nothing to oblivion, in fact it's nothing to even multi eternity, since ME encompasses infinite levels of creation, current eternity embodying the far shore is correct, but that doesn't mean anything since the far shore is shown below the outside which is platonically transcended by oblivion, OverSoul spectre merged with the overvoid and realistically should be on par with it but below, oblivion is arguably above the overvoid since the overvoid and the outside are basically the same thing, the GEB is nothing to anyone on the list IDC what anyone says, GEB was shown below even the otherkind who are below mordru, so no GEB isn't worth a mention, the fulcrum is a featless aspect of TOAA who I wouldn't consider anything too special, the endless are nothing to oblivion, they're just wave functions concepts that are bound to creation, and they are the endless concepts of creation, outside of creation they have no conceptual existence and are just normal characters, the endless don't exist in the real world I'm sick of that argument, it's a metaphorical way of saying "this concept "death" we know IRL is fictionally represented by death of the endless" they don't literally exist IRL, the beyonders were shown as superflow tier, nothing above that, which is nothing to oblivion

If Empty Hand is overrated, why is he your profile then lol? That Superflow scaling was horrible. If the Overvoid is so powerful, where is he on your list? Mother night is NOT the embodiment of space within creation, she is embodiment of the absolute emptiness that predates creation (another feat: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5Sr_oH-ZnE0/VkIORB7AzEI/AAAAAAAAPD8/CcbnF5-Cc9o/s0-Ic42/006.jpg). And where were the beyonders shown as superflow tier?

How is superflow scaling horrible? It's the highest edge of normal existence within marvel, everything beyond it transcends the totality of existence, and EH is in my profile since I think he's pretty cool, tho people need to stop thinking he's as strong as the overvoid or something, and the overvoid doesn't scale to anything I mentioned in my list so that's why and also because the overvoid is NOT a character, mother night literally is the conceptual embodiment of space, whereas father time is time, and the Beyonders best feats were destroying fragments of the superflow, why they're superflow tier, and they destroyed the living tribunal of the superflow, which is superflow tier too

Just the way you were scaling characters to and with the superflow was just terrible. And for the last time she is NOT space. In fact she is "unspace" (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qLpgOKrtx3U/VkIOTa0tM7I/AAAAAAAAPEA/hfawms3mZoY/s0-Ic42/017.jpg) and is devoid of space (check my previous comment) and spaceless due to being the absolute void devoid of anything such as Space and Information and she surpasses all concepts and dimensions. She actually created the DC Multiverse according to Neil Gaiman (https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11134/111343371/6835797-0183489669-004.j.jpg).

Okay so this man's gonna ignore a lot of what I said just to say my scalings terrible, kinda showing he can't debunk anything I said so he's just gonna say that stuff to show off, by that I'll accept the concession that oblivion scales as high as I put him and that EH, Pralaya, mother night, the fulcrum, endless and beyonders can't make the list, can you explain how the scaling to the superflow doesn't make any sense? And is Terrible scaling? Your previous scan shows her trapped within the void, the f? Also that scan states she exists within unspace not that she IS it, indicating again that she exists within the void, and that scan states she created the multiverse how exactly? And that wouldn't be impressive, since there are infinite multiverses in DC and everyone has a single creator, so she just created 1/∞ of the DC omniverse which is nothing to so much in DC

I'm not debunking anything, just saying your scaling is f*cked up, mainly because of too many factors. If you actually look closely (at the bottom), this is actually one of the Endless who are trapped (within their Mother who is "their end"). And this is different. Beings are always stated to have created the Multiverse but only the Presence, Mother Night and Pralaya have sh*t to back it up. "Before the beginning was the Night. The Night was without boundaries, and the Night was without End" and Imma just paraphrase the next quote (Time existed at the beginning, in which things could happen, become, coalesce, and exist). Everything was "possible, ALL versions of it, in it people could die and dream" and as we know the Endless exist anywhere within DC (and fiction but your just gonna flame so alright). This means she did create DC (because people like Pralaya are just one off things, Mother Night and the Endless are consistent characters that always appear here and there). Her husband, Father Time, is her equal (in fact maybe weaker because he existed after her) and gave Destiny his book, which is the DC Multiverse (confirmed many times by writers and see the DC Multiverse map). And in the scan with all those squares, Mother Night is an absolute void, devoid of anything (the Endless trapped within her says she is a "vastness of nothingness" and "we begin in darkness" reconfirming that Mother Night predating creation like Oblivion).

Don't call my scaling trash without logic behind it, Mother night is in a sense a representation of both nothingness and space and Pralaya both would logically be aspects of the overvoid (only an assumption but a logical one) since they all represent the nothingness that contains everything, tho the overvoid by scaling would be far superior to either of them since it transcends all fictional verses to a platonic degree. The multiverse of dc was created as a tiny little spec upon it, the concept of stories was also just created on the overvoid, it is where all form and meaning surrender, temporarily erased mandrakk just by forgetting him (meaning mandrakk is just one thought to the overvoid), and mandrakk is a self assembling hyperstory who is a threat to the entirety of the multiverse and void (void to a lower extent than overvoid), all of that combined together puts the overvoid at a greater advantage than Pralaya or mother night, pralaya her goal is just to melt the totality of creation away (which is something mandrakk alone could also do as he was consistently stated a threat to all creation), she is even shown herself to exist within the sea of brahma (which is the void and where she was birthed)

oh and when swamp thing reversed creation against her nothingness she was ultimately defeated, why i would say she's below oblivion is for a couple of reasons, first they're basically the same thing but her supposed "true form" was never shown, however a logical assumption i made was that shes an aspect of the overvoid, which would make sense since the mutliverse was birthed within her true form (just like how it was birthed onto the overvoid), or it could just be one of the infinite multiverses and just like perpetua, she is only 1 creator while every multiverse has a creator, same with mother night, each multiverse is independent from the map

i'm not trying to downplay Mother night or pralaya, they're probably top 20 but not top 10, I really don't think it could match the insane scaling oblivion has, multi eternity encompasses the totality of infinite levels of creation he is the sum & total of all possible beings, the neverqueen is the embodiment of all possibility every true form celestial dying was just one destroyed possibility to her, she sees the superflow as fiction there will be no existing future if she dies and when she died the multiverse died as if it never existed in the first place, the shaper of worlds is a tier 0 (boundless) being his power could casually recreate the totality of creation, casually recreate the neverqueen and make a multiverse equal in size to multi eternity, Cosmic immortal hulk who is connected with the OBA, he destroyed the 9th cosmos casually (he destroyed the 8th cosmos too which would include eternity and the neverqueen and all of that too, but i don't have that scan right now), those who sit above in shadow don't give a damn about the multiverse collapsing, and are the gods from oblivion, they feed off the concept of stories (the concept of stories transcends the omniverse which in marvel is the cosmos, they bring cosmic oblivion to the cosmos when they attack, and there are others, now keep in mind every character i listed out exist within the outside

and oblivion sees the outside as infinitesimal to him, characters like the shaper of worlds and TWSAIS however were shown directly to be below oblivion, with shaper falling to oblivion (in a scan i already shown) and oblivion encompasses TWSAIS, keep in mine the LOS also have been shown below oblivion, same with the first firmament, and Divine creator staffed man thing, all of them shown below oblivion, unlike pralaya, oblivion is consistently shown at these high levels, not just shown in 1 or 2 appearances which requires assumptions to put very high, Other characters have stuff to back therm up being creators of their individual multiverses and the fact there are infinite with each having their own creator proves my point, Mother night didn't create the totality of DC, the presence did that, pralaya didn't either, also destiny's book being the map is downplay for the book, it contains even the source within it and the source is boundless to everything below it in the DC cosmology which is from the source wall and below (shown on the multiverse map), and no, for the love of GOD! NO, they do NOT exist everywhere in all of fiction, that was just a crossover in marvel that happened once, they don't exist throughout all of fiction, there are definitely limits light it being consistently stated that they are the concepts of creation, which they are, outside of creation, they have no conceptual existence, plus michael and lucifer both scale way beyond the endless and mother night (who i agree is above father time) and since they're some of the lower spots it kicks them off the list.

You forgot Rune King Thor

Rune King Thor literally can't even hurt ANYONE on Empty's list.

You can't make 'assumptions' about whether Pralaya is an aspect of the Overvoid, otherwise we could do that for every character, over- or under- estimating their abilities. And Mother Night did make the DC Multiverse, because as confirmed by writers and the DC Map, the Endless (specifically Destiny) overlooks the DC Multiverse, and they confirmed their Mother made the Multiverse. And for the Endless, I am not referring to that one appearance in a Hulk Comic. They exist by necessity. Lucifer tried to make a Multiverse outside of DC but failed to keep the Endless out because his Multiverse wouldn't exist without them (because reality is nothing without Dream). For example: Everything has a destiny (whether it be doing nothing, or doing something), everything has a desire (to do nothing or do something), because someone like Death in Marvel, is but a manifestation, an embodiment of Death of the Endless (who IS Death). The only reason you think they do not exist everywhere, is because DC are the only ones who decided to personify and anthropomorphize them. Reality does not exist without Dream, life does not exist without Death and so on and so on. They are essentially those who allow stories to be made, and stories about them is like a story about how stories are made. They are metaconcepts, motifs, like Oblivion, that exist everywhere. Like Bruce Wayne would not be Batman if Death had not taken his parents (this applies to other heroes as well in Marvel). And going back to your point on wave functions: they explain why subatomic particles behave the way they do and subatomic particles are the reasons and causes for what things do the way they do it, and if I went back to the beginning of the universe and knew how subatomic particles would react, I would now who YOU would play out your life. Essentially, the Endless make your decisions, not you.

The Endless are better explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ATxT1MUZE8

You can if they're logical assumptions and i gave proof of it, Pralayas true form being the overvoid would make sense, and i already explained to you that the DC multiverse map being created is nothing, destiny's book encompasses the map yes, but everything below the source he encompasses, it doesn't include the source or the overvoid, which they both stand above the endless since the endless exist within the god sphere which is levels below the source (only destiny is higher in existence than the god sphere), the multiverse map in its entirety is just an equal and opposite to the dark multiverse which is surrounded by the Shadowlands, the dark multiverse exists far out there within the overvoid outside the source wall and has characters like barbatos who can shake the multiverse by screaming, and there are characters besides the endless that are living archetypal ideas that the multiverse needs in order to exist, the endless have nothing over them, mandrakk > the endless even, also lmfao lucifer straight up allowed death to exist within his creation, he even created his own concepts of life and death, and he himself created the endless using his own willpower, lucifer >>> >>> >>> >>> the endless, so that debunks the whole argument of them existing within all fictions, you're explaining every character that is bound to the concepts, they are only those concepts to all beings within creation, everything outside of those are not bound by any concept they encompass, death is directly stated to be limited to everything in creation and can’t exist within the overvoid, so idk where all this is coming from, and every hero in DC has their own concept of death that they are bound to, death of the endless might be a high-end concept of death but there are stronger ones such as mandrakk, so all their metaconceptual existences are all to creation, and that only.

So you're using a youtube video as evidence? I've watched it that videos wacky

😂

supergirl ? :D

Few doubts:
1. How are the Endless above HOTU Thanos?
2. The Beyonder and MM are both as powerful as the Beyonders and God Doom.
3. How is OBLIVION and Pralaya even in the top 10 let alone above Beyonder, Molecule Man AND Scathan.

1. HotU Thanos doesn't have feats on their level.
2. The Beyonders are described as far stronger than The Beyonder. Their statements are much better, and they did create The Beyonder in the first place.
3. You do realize Oblivion not only predates all of creation, but views it and everything within it (including mortal and cosmic beings) as an illusion, right? And everything will return to his void in the end. Pralaya is essentially the same thing. The Beyonder and Molecule Man will eventually return to Oblivion's void, and Scathan is lesser than all of them. The only beings in Marvel that can transcend Oblivion are The Beyonders, who are limited by nothing within reason, and those beyond them.

1. He basically absorbed the entire cosmic assembly with no effort. He is essentially the successor of TOAA. The Beyonders had to put some effort into taking down the LT, one member of the assembly and then pick out the rest of them. Then lost to millions (is that right? Millions?) of Molecule Men.
2. I'm talking about Pre Retcon Beyonder and MM. If you're talking about them too then ... fair enough.
3. Isn't Oblivion, Eternity's brother? And shouldn't Multi-Oblivion not be a thing if Oblivion is the end?

BTW who is Mother Night and Father Time? And who is Gabriel Hornblower and Mazikeen?

1. The only feat of his that really matters is absorbing The Living Tribunal, who is a baseline beyond-dimensional being. Death, Destiny and Dream are all far beyond the baseline of beyond-dimensional power, as they have feats beyond that baseline and scale far above the baseline.

2. I mean Pre-Retcon. I'd have specified if I mean Post-Retcon.

3. Technically, yes, but also no. Oblivion created not only Eternity, but all of creation and everything within it. And Multi-Oblivion is really just Oblivion's true form, which is the beyond all of creation.

Mother Night is boundless and undimensional and is devoid of time, space, thoughts, information or any other definition, which is almost exactly the same as The Beyonders, who are not limited by anything within reason. Father Time is equal to her.

Gabriel Hornblower is an angel considered to be on the same tier of power as Lucifer and Michael, albeit far inferior to the both of them. Mazikeen held the Morningstar power. Both of them also fought against Michael and the army of Heaven.

Your list is by far, one of the most accurate lists. Good job!

Thanks!

Sh*t I forgot Oblivion put him #2 please and push Everything else back one

Oblivion 2nd? Lol.

Lol **** no, Lucifer and Michael aren't on the list yet Unbound is?! And TFDS is?, Nah fam

This is the funniest thing i have ever seen :D

@Andreasver your dumb your dumb your dumb your ******* dumb

No Andreas is just saying what he thinks Martian Manhunter is still omiverseal

Your just trolling not even a 2 year old is that dumb

**** you, if you put 5 more minutes into some sort of research you would know that list is so ******* wrong, All those characters you just considered ME dumb for, would all blink every character on your 2 stupid lists, You say Galactus = Strongest marvel characters lmaoooo

Thx lol