Soulcollecter57's Open Challenge

I'm not familiar with Wiccan's power, care to give a brief explanation, and how high you scale him?

He's basically got the same powers as Scarlet Witch, with reality warping and things of that nature, and a lot of electrokinesis as well. I'd rank his power level as... well, I'm new here so I don't really know the terms, but easily one of if not the most powerful humans in the Marvel Multiverse.

Hmm, Dr. Manhattan has a lot of those same abilities as well, but he is reasonable for recreating the New 52, which is a 52x universal feat at least, what is Wiccan's most impressive feat?

Wiccan as demiurge?

Do Dr Manhattan vs White/Dark Phoenix instead

This is isn't a graveyard suggestion, he asked a question on who I think wins

Go on Discord ma man

Should i use our meme?

They'll have to open it in a new tab, but yeah go for it

Vegeta, that's the one thing that sets them apart, the only reason Goku will always have the edge over Vegeta, is he knew hpw to train properly, smarter, not harder.

Goku with power cosmic, gives him more versatility than Mjolnir would.
SSBE Vegeta, he was comparable to SSGSS Goju with a kiao ken boost on that, I believe it was a x10, so without kiao ken, Vegeta wins, even with additional training which is subjective, so I don't count it in battles.

I disagree on both.
1. The Power Cosmic is much more versatile, but would Goku be smart enough to use it properly? I feel as if Goku wouldn't be able to figure out how to use the Power Cosmic right while Vegeta would easily learn how to use Mjølnir.
2. SSB Goku was stated to be nearing the power of a GoD by the time of the Broly movie, so he would have to be comparable to SSBE Vegeta as he was also nearing the power of a God. I think it would be a stalemate.

Goku may not be the strongest, but he would adapt to the power cosmic rather quickly, as he can adapt to new things very fast and learns at an incredible rate, he learned Kame Hame Ha on the first try, mastered Kiao Ken in a day, evident when you defeated Nappa he could easily change in and out of it on a dime, he also did the same with Ssj, god, and blue, he learned how ti use it very fast and plus having the power cosmic gives you at least base knowledge on how to use it, I mean Norrin Rad had it down to a science immediately after obtaining it, plus it's a larger power increase, went from base human level to arguably galaxy+. And it wqs nearing the power of a g.o.d. Vegeta was matching and surpassed a g.o.d. thar being Toppo, so it's very vague on the scale of g.o.d. but one was on that level the other was close, it's because of that I say Vegeta wins that fight.

Smartest* not strongest for the first line.

@soulcollector34: The Silver Surfer admitted that Mjolnir's magic is more powerful than his Power Cosmic in 'Silver Surfer Volume 1 #4, Page #36, Panel #7'.

@SirSpidey: That doesn't matter, since it's not SILVER SURFER'S Power Cosmic, it's Power Cosmic in general.

@SirSpidey, I never said Surfer's power was stronger than Thor's, I had said it has a wider array of abilities, and is a larger boost to power not necessarily more powerful, as Thor was an asgardian without it, and even the weakest asgardians are still city to multi-city level, and Thor is above all of them, so it's a possible country buster to universal level, and a base human, to multi-galaxy level. So while Thor is stronger than Surfer, the power cosmic enhances a person much more.

Okay, one more thing. Who do you think would be more worthy of Mjølnir, Goku or Vegeta? I think Vegeta.

Goku is more worthy, he is completely pure of heart, all he cares about is fighting and protecting his planet, and his friends, but refuses to kill anyone unless he absolutely has to, while Vegeta is similar to that, he still has some moral ambiguity, and has no problem with killing, so it's because of that I say Goku is more worthy.

@soratoumiga: Well good thing Mjolnir has decimated the master of the Power Cosmic within one blast.

The master of Power Cosmic is Galactus, who has decimated an amped version of Thor and Odin himself, who is consistently shown to be superior to Thor. Power Cosmic is leagues and tiers above Mjolnir or anything that it has accomplished.

Fate all the way

By full power, do you mean Nabu?

Yes
Fate with the Power of Nabu

Nabu!

That just seems like spite then. Obviously Goku can't beat a being on that level.

Fate

SSJ2 Kefla is arguably stronger, what it really comes down to is do you think G.O.D. Toppo is stronger than 2nd trigger UI Omen? I personally believe that Toppo was below that Goku, which would make him below SSJ2 Kefla, and if it took Vegeta almost killing himself to put down Toppo, meaning that they are comparable in power, Vegeta would be below Kefla.

I get that Caulifla was supposed to be some badass who had beaten many people and Kale is basically supposed to be their "Gohan or Broly" basically but doesn't mean I still don't feel like it was a cop out to write these characters into the story.

You know Kale wasn't Toriyama's decision, right? The writers at Toei suggested her due to Broly's popularity, and Toriyama was just like; "Yeah, sure." And threw her in there. Them being as strong as they are aren't really cop-outs, since there's sensible explanations for why they're that strong. Caulifla can adapt mid-fight like Broly and Kale (along with being the Legendary Super Saiyan) has an endless well of power to draw from.

So a character is popular so they decided to throw another one in there? Is it not a cop out? It is. Still, I think "adaptive abilities" are a little bit of a cop out, I hate that Goku can do it too. There's a lot of characters that do and it annoys me, only one that doesn't upset me is Cell since his genetic makeup is of other fighters, because Caulifla sees Cabba go Super Saiyan, she can just all of a sudden do it? Get out of here man. Cause if that's the case she has more potential power then what Gohan had and I don't believe that at all.

That's not what a cop-out is. A cop-out is a lazy excuse or taking the easy way out. Kale being put into the story doesn't qualify as either of those definitions. And adaptation isn't a cop-out either, that's just part of the Saiyan physiology. All of them can do that. And Caulifla doesn't go SSJ just by seeing Cabba do it. Cabba teaches her how to go SSJ, and she does it. And considering that the Universe 6 Saiyans are noted to be "evolved Saiyans," which is why they don't have tails, it would make perfect sense for Caulifla to have comparable potential to Gohan, who's just a half-breed.

Oh, and if you have a problem with Caulifla and Kale, I suppose you must have problems with Goten and Trunks as well. After all, they became Super Saiyans at a much younger age than Caulifla and Kale.

@cw6334 I don't agree with adaptive abilities either but you have ti understand they exist as a plot device, it is a cop out, but almost every main hero character has them, like Superman and the sun, or Hulk with his anger, it's an easy way to explain stuff that people use to progress the story, it is a cop out, but that doesn't correlate to character quality, they are just semi-poorly written Mary Sues, that's why their characters are lacking. It was simply fan service, and because Super had a deadline they needed to meet, so there wasn't room for all them to have long character development stages and were rushed to meet a deadline, same reason Jiren is considered a bad character, they were rushed, and needed a quick easy way to explain stuff, and their characters were negatively affected because of it.

Here's the thing about Goten and Trunks, I think they are useless characters who don't ever really add much to the story besides fusing in the Buu Saga and then become Super Saiyan 3 which I also thought was dumb. I don't care as much about Super Saiyans because I know who their bloodline are. I don't really know Kale or Caulifla's bloodline very well. Now I think you're also miscontruing how I am talking about Kale and Caulifla, I don't care that they are in there and i think some of the stuff they do is cool. I just have problems with the fact, that all of a sudden they have these powers.

It's just as all of a sudden as Goten and Trunks going SSJ as like 8 year olds. They don't make much sense either. And I guess you could say there's no proper explanation for Caulifla's power, but you can't say that with Kale. She is the Legendary Super Saiyan, it makes perfect sense for her to be as strong as she is. Just look at Broly. He went from below base Vegeta level to tangling with SSGSS Gogeta. That's an even higher level of ascension compared to Kale going from Cell Junior level to SSGSS Goku level.

Here's the thing about Broly though, I actually care about his character and i understand where his raw power comes from. Whenever you live in captivity and have to kill for your food and use your instinctive abilities, that is going to make you MUCH MUCH stronger, and prepare you for almost anything. I agree with you that Kale can be the legendary super saiyan and @soulcollector said it best I think, if they would've had more time, they could have explained more about Kale and Caulifla, then I could've seen more growth. I would love to actually one day. Like I said, here is the thing about Goten and Trunks. With their bloodlines being filled with super saiyans already. I can understand that maybe they were born with the ability to do it, that's all. Didn't say I liked it.

That works with Caulifla though. Broly grew up on a savage world (and is the LSSJ), Caulifla most likely had to work her way up before becoming the leader of her gang, and it was noted the moment she was first mentioned that she had amazing potential. It's just like Gohan in Z, he was quickly noted to have amazing potential. I just think it doesn't make sense to call Caulifla and Kale's power "bad writing," or a "cop-out" when there are explanations to how and why they're so strong.

See but just like you said with Vegito , there are too many assumptions to be made, that's what you're doing with Caulifla right now, that she had to work her way up to being the leader. I agree that maybe she had to, but if we can't assume that Vegito is at full power, then we can't do the same with assuming on how Caulifla got to her power. We actually saw Broly survive a harsh planet his whole life and he wasn't alive on a planet where he had anyone else, it was just him and his father, who isn't much of a father if you ask me.

No, Vegito and Caulifla are two entirely different situations. Broly Saga Vegito is 99% assumptions. All we really know is that he'd be stronger than Gogeta. That's it. By the way, it's not saying Vegito isn't at full power. His full power was in the Black Arc, when we last saw him. Broly Saga Vegito literally does not exist. It would be like if I assumed every time Kefla was in a battle was a hypothetical Planet Sadal Saga Kefla. You can't do that because it doesn't exist. Same with Vegito. Anyways, Caulifla is different. It would make the most logical sense to say she had to work her way up to the top, because otherwise we'd have to assume that she started the gang, which has even less evidence and logic behind it.

How is Broly Sage Vegito 99% assumptions? We know how powerful Goku is, we know how powerful Vegeta is at max power at the moment, then only assuming we are making here is that Vegeta would want to do it. Then the only other assumption would be. Can he go Ultra Instinct or no? I personally say no, but that's one assumption. Not five to ten. It's not like we've never seen Vegito before and are saying what if hypothetically they did what the Kai's did and fused, no. We already know Vegito and what he is capable of. We now know what Goku and Vegeta are capable of and you can put that current knowledge into Vegito. Just like people did with SSJ4 Vegito. Other than Caulifla being pretty strong and adaptable, what is your evidence that she had to overtake it? I don't think it exists. You can't base it off something that doesn't exist right?

We don't know what Vegito's multiplier is, so we'd have to guess that. We don't know how strong his forms would be, so we'd have to guess that. We don't know anything about him besides, he'd be stronger than Goku and Vegeta combined, and he'd be stronger than Gogeta. We cannot use that, because there are too many assumptions, and because IT DOESN'T EXIST. Broly Saga Vegito doesn't exist, he can't be used, it's Goku Black Saga Vegito. That's just how it works. And as I said, it makes much more sense to assume that Caulifla didn't start at the top because of simple logic.

Cause THIS is the most fair fight we could create and debate about. Latest Goku and most powerful Goku to this day, same goes for Vegeta and they do the fusion dance. We do the same Goku and the same Vegeta which we know everything about. We are not assuming anything about their powers. They decide to use the potara earrings to find out what is the strongest fusion. That is the ultimate and most fair fight.

I wanted you to say why it makes the most logical sense cause I am still missing something I guess, that can explain why she became so powerful, but you are still assuming that is what happened. It is a logical assumption, I'll give you that, but still an assumption. Cause for all we know, someone could've died and she could've been handed the spot at the top. I'm not saying that is what happened, but it at least makes sense. she could've already been strong and then they trusted her with it. So we can both make assumptions. It doesn't exist still though. Even if we really want it too.

Fairness doesn't matter. What matters is the fact that there is no Broly Saga Vegito, it doesn't exist, it cannot be used, it has to be Black Saga Vegito. If Vegito reappears in the future, then it will be that Vegito. But until that happens, it's Black Saga Vegito.

So you're just fine with putting Vegito at a disadvantage, even though he already is anyway?

And Caulifla working her way to the top makes logical sense for several reasons. One, she's very clearly in her late teens, maybe early twenties. How is she going to start a gang at that age? Two, you don't just get handed the top spot in a gang, I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. Three, even if you did assume Caulifla started the gang from nothing (which makes absolutely no sense), you can't assume nobody tried to challenge her, which could be another explanation for her being that strong. There's also the fact that it was implied she's fought Cabba in the past, and was somewhat relative to him, so she's already clearly on that level of power since Cabba was equal to U6 Saga Vegeta in their base forms.

It's not putting Vegito at a disadvantage. It's using what actually exists and is confirmed. And no, Vegito is not already at a disadvantage. It has been stated so many times that Potara >>> Metamoran. Using Broly Saga Vegito just seems like a poor attempt to have Vegito still win against Gogeta even though in reality, he'd get obliterated.

Here I'm about to do some match for ya, all from the Manga and Guides. Goku base power level at SSGSS form in Dragonball Super Broly if we are using the formula's given by Battle Power Guide. SSGSS Goku and Vegeta are both at the power level of 9,325,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Septilion. Broly is even higher in Full Powered Legendary Super Saiyan. Vados comments in Tournament of Power that the Potara Fusion is adding up the two subjects power levels and multiplying it by 100 or 50 at the barem minimum. Making the Equation ((A+B)*100 or at least 50) So lets figure out the math shall we? Seems pretty logical to me, adding together we get a power level of 18.650 Septillion, then you multiply it by 100. 1.865 Octillion is the final result. I may have slipped up in my math somewhere but it is the basic gist. So there is the multiplier for ya.

Really? Power levels? Power levels have not existed (or been relevant) since the end of the Namek Saga, and there's absolutely no power levels for anything in Super, except for those few moments in the Broly movie where they were on Planet Vegeta. So no. The math is also wrong by assuming Goku and Vegeta are equal, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Also nooo, you are discounting the fact that Vegito being way more powerful, the fusion would last for maybe 1-5 minutes if even. In other versions of the Fusion dance, it is stated that the dance lasts for 30 minutes and depending on how much KI is used changes the time. This clearly is not the case in the Broly Saga. It all seems fudged a bit, because being truthful, because we saw Gotenks last 15 minutes as a SSJ3, and Gogeta lasts 10 as a SSJ4 so SSGSS would have to last 5 minutes or so? Or is that overlooked in this movie?

I'm using the math given by Battle Power Guide. Which is used to scale levels, and how they compare to other characters. Power scaling essentially

You know we aren't even thinking about this in reality which would be, neither fusion lasts long enough to finish the fight. Or shouldn't anyway. According to other Canon.

Since when was there a battle power guide for Super? Where do those numbers even come from? And I'm not discounting anything with Vegito. He wouldn't be in the fight long enough to defuse, because honestly, Gogeta would one-shot him. That fight would end instantly, because Black Arc Vegito is just so far below Gogeta.

Okay so I am gonna say this one last time, Caulifla's origins of how she got to where she is, is unknown. You are making logical assumptions, ones that I even agree with, but you are still making an assumption nonetheless Tracer, cause we don't know and that story doesn't exist. Even if the math is incorrect on Vegito, you can still make the logical assumption that the potara still have the same power/multiplier. Goku and Vegeta being the "power level" that they are. It IS a logical assumption, I get the point that you are making about it not existing, I get that, but Caulifla's story about her ascnesion isn't there and doesn't exist so therefore you are creating the story in your head with a logical explanation or assumption. So therefore, others are allowed to do the same with Vegito. It's like if I made the logical assumption that if Gohan would've kept training he would be much farther ahead of Cabba and Caulifla (Kale I'm on the fence because of her raw power) because of where he was as Mystic Gohan, that story doesn't exist but I am still creating the exact same kind of logical assumption you are.

I also won't discredit the fact that Vegito is below him either, he's below Kefla and would probably almost be one-shotted by Gogeta

I am sorry Tracer I got my numbers from Battle Power Guide on Fandom, which makes them not factual and are based on interviews and such, not factual. I apologize. But this is actually a quote from Vados in the manga, which is the equation I gave and that is lowballing the numbers. So we at least have a though of what we could do for the numbers. But, I apologize, I misread something on here, you'll have to forgive me, it's early here haha.

One last question then, I will give you the fight of Gogeta (Broly) vs Vegito (Trunks) cause it's not close, but can we at least do something that does exist then? Super Gogeta vs Super Vegito?

Well, if it was Super Gogeta v. Super Vegito, then Vegito would obliterate. Vegito was universal, since he was able to overpower Buuhan's Vice Shout that would have destroyed the universe, while Gogeta was only low universal due to very scaling from Broly.

So you'd say in respective timelines, they would both win one fight or the other? SSGSS Gogeta one-shots, and the Super Vegito does the same?

Yeah, Gogeta Blue v. Vegito Blue, Gogeta one-shots. Super Gogeta v. Super Vegito, Vegito one-shots.

Well we definitely agree on that then. I like debating about Dragonball with you @LordTracer, you know so much more than most of my actual friends hahahah

LOL!

With assistance from, Ego the Living planet, and the Recorder yes. With help he was able to defeat Galactus, can't disprove a fact, kind of impossible to do.

How did Ego assist Thor, other than catching him out of the sky? And how would it even be possible for the Recorder to assist Thor? All he did was record the event...

Ego battled Galactus for a very long time, basically the first half of the comic, and that weakened Galactus, obviously. And all I said was they assisted I didn't say how, and the Recorder helped him get there and to leave, and helped him awaken the Wanderer's ship. So he helped in some form or another.

Umm, Ego did absolute s**t to Galactus. If he did, by all means, prove it. So the Recorder didn't assist Thor in any way that actually pertains to Thor defeating Galactus. Why did you even mention him in the first place?

On page 5, the narrator states "But never before a goal such as this exist! Never before did two such multi-powered entities as the planet devouring Galactus, and Ego, the living bioverse, face each other in a desperate battle!" If the two were not close in power, than the battle wouldn't be "desperate", you are making it seem as though it was a complete stomp, it wasn't, Ego was even trash talking Galactus the whole time, and managed to temporarily restrain Galactus, which takes a lot of force to achieve. Not to mention Thor didn't burt Galactus on his own power alone, he used a machine to harness and enhance the power of his hammer, not to mention had Thor not landed on Ego he would have died he even admitted it himself on page 16, 3rd panel, "I am hurled to you living planet with a force that is meant to slay me!" In the very next panel he says "But another force doth strangely rise to meet me!" "The world below me hath moved to stay my fall!" Thor is not one to use hyperbole, Galactus would have one shotted him had Ego not stop his fall.

Okay? The battle being desperate has nothing to do with Ego doing absolute s**t to Galactus. Point me to where in the comic it says or displays Galactus being hurt by Ego. Oh no, not THIS argument again. The pedestal did NOTHING. All it did was prop Mjolnir up in the direction of Galactus. But that is a moot point anyways because Thor has been shown capable of performing this same attack without a pedestal ever since. Hmm, I guess you need to work on your comprehension skills. Thor did not admit he was going to die. Many beings have attacked Thor with a force that is meant to slay him. That doesn't mean that Thor automatically dies though. You have to factor in Thor's nigh-invulnerability as well. And almost all of those attacks meant to slay him have proven insufficient. I'm surprised that you would even claim that you are a better debater than me whenever you can't even comprehend what a single quote is saying. What do you mean Thor isn't one to use hyperbole? Is he special or something? Does he get a concession because he is the God of Thunder or something? Explain yourself. Oh, so at first you say Thor can beat Galactus with help, but now you say that Thor gets one shot? Come on now, @soulcollector34. Let's try to stay consistent.

He did require help. If Ego had not caught him, which is an assist, or help, he would have died, and Thor's hammer would not have been able to do that without the pedestal. Thor's hammer did that, not Thor, and he has NEVER shown that power again, never on that scale, prove the pedestal did not help, prove it. And what does debate skill have to do with comprehension? Please for the love of God explain that correlation. People interpret things differently, has nothing to do with debate skill, you sound ignorant. If you factor in Thor's nigh-unlimited durability, then you have to factor in Galactus' nigh-unlimited power, which cancel each other out, meaning it would have killed Thor. You have not proven otherwise, Thor admitted it would have killed him, or at least mortally wounded him. And you like the think what Thor says is complete truth, as you use a lot of statements from him, so I'd assume if you believe everything he says, that you wouldn't consider him one to hyperbole, which normally he doesn't. The only time he ever says anything he truly believes that. So you haven't proven he would have survived that attack without assistance which nothing suggests he would have otherwise, you have yet to proven he doesn't need help to fend off Galactus, and you haven't proven that he has achieved that same power, on the same exact magnitude that his hammer achieved with help from the pedestal. If he didn't need the pedestal then why did he use it? And you think something completely subjective such as interpretation = debating skill.

I can agree with that, and I feel Majin Vegeta based on that is slightly superior to base Kale, simply because Vegeta blasted holes clear through Fat Buu and was arguably equal in strength with Buu's major advantage being his regeneration hacks, if it wasn't for that after his self destruct Vegeta completely obliterated Fat Buu. Vegeta battle Buu for a long time before hand as a near equal even toying with him towards the beginning, and Kale got for the most part bodied until Caulifla saved her from what looked like a potential rape in progress. But the thing is, it wasn't until Vegeta self destructed that he was equaling the power of the SSJ2 Teen Gohan vs Perfect Cell Kame-Hame-Ha clash, so about multi-solar system level if we assume Fat Buu was stronger than Majin Vegeta. And Methiop is weaker than Piccolo through basic scaling and logic, and Piccolo is comparable to the Trio De Dangers from scaling to Frost, and they were around Buu saga tier. With that being said, if the Trio De Dangers are comparable to Fat Buu, and Methiop is weaker than the Trio De Dangers, then by scaling Kale would be weaker than Majin Vegeta who is comparable to Trio De Dangers, and if Vegeta put up a better fight against a stronger opponent, then base Kale from the beginning of the TOP should be weaker than Majin Vegeta.

Okay, so base Kale would be maybe large star level, at most solar system levelI have some questions though. How is Frost in the same tier as the Trio De Dangers? They're Buu Saga level, but Frost should be on that universal level, as he should be somewhat relative to Cabba, who was equal to base Vegeta.

I meant that The Trio De Dangers are Buu Saga, and Methiop is weaker than The Trio De Dangers, so Kale should be weaker than Majin Vegeta because of that fact, everything else was additional scaling to put emphasis on the point I was making. So Kale < Majin Vegeta

Oh, okay. So, who do you think is the strongest character from Z that base Kale could beat?

Probably Cell Jr. Level, maybe Perfect Cell if you wanted to high ball

I'm not huge on either if these characters, but I'll say Mr. Mxy wins because he is a 5th dimensional imp while the most that I have seen from Mad Jim Jaspers, is 4th dimensional, but I could easily be persuaded because I know very few about either, but I'm going with Mxy.

Via feats, Mxy wins. He has few multiversal destruction feats, and beings on his level, or even lower, have toyed with the Spectre couple of times. MJJ on the other hand has statements, but his feats can easily be described as multiversal, due to his home universe getting destroyed due to his warp (238). Crude statements included, MJJ would be far above Mxy. He's omniversal threat, and regardless how Marvel's diary describes it, omniverse is the mainstream multiversal plus all the infinite layers of spatial higher dimensions above the multiverse, including the 5th Dimensions. In conclusion, Mxy by feats, MJJ by statements.

Oh okay, so Mxy does win cool, and yes I only go by feats and only use statements on rare occasions.

Okay, great, we agree.

Kefla wins this. Vegito during the future Trunks saga was evenly matched with Zamasu during their battle and Zamasu was still only 3rd dimensional infinite third when he became the universe so he never reached 4th dimensional levels of power, whereas Jiren showed power superior to that of 4th dimensional from his battle with Hit when he escaped the time prison, and Goku was able to contend with a stronger version of that Jiren later on after his 2nd time going into Omen and Kefla gave that Goku a run for his money and would have won if she wasn't blasted off the stage, so Kefla battled with an at least 4th dimensional Goku UI meaning Kefla has beyond 4-D level power and speed and should logically defeat Vegito (Trunks saga) who is comparable to a infinite 3-D to barely 4-D fused Zamasu. Kefla wins, but if Vegito was to fuse again right now Kefla would lose.

Oh, then we agree. I think it should also be noted that SSJ2 C-Type Kefla was implied to be capable of one-shotting 2nd Trigger Omen Goku, which just further puts her above Vegito.

Definitely, even without that knowledge Kefla still outclasses Trunks Saga Vegito.

The debate on here transferred to the other forum so it's done in this forum, but the debate itself isn't.
Care to explain how (Excluding Death of the Endless because she is omnipotent)? Each individual Beyonder is stronger than LT who stands atop every single other Cosmic Abstract (Except Oblivion) and is (VSBW definition) Multiversal and there is a total of 7 Beyonders that were seen, and there power combined is equal to the original pre-retcon Beyonder who was the second strongest being in the Marvel Multiverse and is above Michael and Lucifer who are both above The Endless (excluding Death) so based on that they would all be below the Beyonders.

Well, I always count Death, but if we don't include her, the Endless are still above Beyonders. And I thought of the three Beyonders that killed the Living Tribunal, not 7 of them. But anyway, each of the Endless is comparable to one individual Beyonder, and one Beyonder is not superior to Tribunal alone, but at least 3 of them are. Anyway, it was never stated that 7 Beyonders = Pre Retcon Beyonder, I would personally still put PR Beyonder above them, since he was 1,000,000x more powerful than the Living Tribunal, while 3 Beyonders are only barely above LT.

Now, Lucifer is arguably above PR Beyonder, but that's a story for another time. The main threat to the Beyonders would be Destiny. Beyonders suffered from PIS and are bound by destiny, not to mention the fact that their existence is linear, while Destiny (and other Endless) exist in all timelines and realities, regardless of when. Simply because they were bound by Destiny at the moment they were defeated means Destiny can beat them alone. Then we have Dream and Destruction. They can arguably beat 1-3 Beyonders at once due to their nature. With all the other Endless, Beyonders would lose, and I didn't even mention Death.

I'm using 7 Beyonders because (I might be mistaken) that is the total amount of Endless that exist in DC and it would only seem fair that the number be equal. But the original Beyonder's power is separated among all of the individual Beyonders but since the total number of individual Beyonders is not stated let's assume it would take 1000 Beyonders to equal the Original one but truthfully that has nothing to do with that debate at hand so I won't really talk about it.
They are actually above the concepts of time and everything because they exsist in the Beyond realm which transcends everything in the main Marvel Multiverse. And on the topic of Destiny, while the Beyonders were subject to PIS I don't believe that Destiny could effect them because of it simply due to the fact Destiny is contained within DC and her abilities wouldn't have the same effect in another Multiverse like Marvel, this is an example of Occam's Razor, which is why Saitama cannot one shot everything because since this is hypothetical you have to take the answer with the least assumptions.

Yeah, there are 7 Endless (currently). Okay then, it makes sense for the number to be equal.
Yes, they should be, but due to PIS, they were described as linear beings, which means they do not transcend time, which would mean that they're not even on Mxy's level. And The Endless are omniversal entities, they all exist in Marvel as well, so I don't see a reason why Destiny's omniscience, for example, wouldn't work in Marvel. Death appeared in Marvel, in fact, and was described as an omniversal entity. So, with Death, Endless would win, but I can argue they beat Beyonders even without Death. Destiny's book is so powerful that not even Michael, who is superior to Tribunal, and therefore comparable to Beyonders could take it away from him forcefully, and it was heavily implied that everything was written in that book, including omniversal things. And how would the Endless technically lose to Beyonders? Beyonders didn't show any type of conceptual manipulation at all during New Avengers, so I don't think they even have it, and by that extension they would be incapable of beating the Endless, because you have to have conceptual manipulation to even contend with them, and it doesn't assure you victory.

Those are mostly hacks, so with their hacks the Endless will most likely win, but take that away and it becomes sure destructive capability and feats that display it. It was never shown how the Beyonders defeated the Abstracts but if it was brute force alone then a total of 3 are at least twice as powerful as LT because to completely stomp someone you need to be at least twice that character's power if not many more times as such meaning that a total of 6 is 4x the power of LT and then the 7th one added to that so the total power of all 7 Beyonders would be 4.33x as powerful as LT BUT because the Beyonder's are fractions of the Original Beyonder it only makes sense they would have his same abilities but perhaps not on as great a scale. Destiny's book would logically only contain everything within DC and would not extend to other universes because then technically that would mean DC has all the characters from Marvel, Dragon Ball, Pokémon, Star Wars, etc. within it meaning it would not only be a HUGE copyright infringement but that Destiny knows more than OAA, Presence, and every single other God type being in all forms of media and that is simply not true and it would fall under Occam's Razor making the argument fundamentally invalid and if I take your word on Death of the Endless appearing in Marvel and it being cannon, she is still infinitely above all the other Endless and is uncomparable. So to conclude with Death The Endless easily take it, but without Death it's a tie or the Beyonders barely scrape out a win due to each being at least 1/3 of the LT in raw power alone (I believe them each to be at least equal to LT individually) and then adding the reality powers of the Beyonder on top of that.

Well... Higher dimensional characters and high tier characters usually use conceptual hax and things like that, instead of using raw destructive capability, so it's fine to use hax to prove my point of Endless beating Beyonders, because of the fact that hax is 90% of their powers. The Endless are aspects, they do not fight, so it's a bit hard to compare the Beyonders to them, because Beyonders are very much different in terms of their nature of powers. If we don't include the copyright thing, it's highly likely that Destiny also knows a lot about Marvel. Technically, Destiny isn't fully omniscient in DC either (he doesn't know Presence's full plan and Delirum's thoughts). But anyway, as I said, it would be pointless to put them against Beyonders if they don't have the same powers in Marvel as they do in DC.
Personally, I think one Beyonder is 1/3 of the power, because if it took three of them to take down LT, that would mean each of them has at least one third of LT's powers. It can't be more, because only two of them would be able to take down LT by themselves without the third one, if it was more. If there was 6 Beyonders v. 6 Endless (without Death), I think Endless take it, barely, 5.5-6/10 times. I think Dream, Destruction and Destiny would be able to beat 3 Beyonders individually, while Despair, Delirum and Desire would lose to 3 Beyonders (however Delirum may beat one Beyonder). That would leave us to Destiny/Dream/Destruction v. 3 Beyonders, and since I think Destiny alone can beat the Living Tribunal, I think Destiny can beat one fatigued Beyonder by himself, leaving Dream and Destruction to deal with the others, and then beating them after a hard fight.

That is a totally plausible outcome. That's the problem with debating characters such as these who's powers and hacks live within the realm of hyperbole and is nigh impossible to declare a winner. In terms of raw power it goes to the Beyonders but with hacks it goes to the Endless and a good majority of the time hacks surpass raw power hence forth why they're called hacks. In one on ones the Endless take it because hacks are stronger than raw power, but in group combat the Beyonders take it via mobbing up on the lower tier Endless to gain the numbers advantage and go after the stronger ones, and since we both agree it could really go either way it truthfully comes down to personal preference you in favor of the Endless and me in favor of the Beyonders.

Yeah, I think your explanation seems reasonable.

Bish please.

That's my record for this forum, you can look through all the ones below, you want to be my 9th challenger?

After my debate with Spidey, which I will continue after my exams

Good luck, I can't wait.

You still didn't disprove me regarding Wanda and Strange thing, so...

Oh no, I've disproved you very well in fact, you just won't accept it. Composite Doctor Strange, there is no contest there, we agree on that, but for Wanda being the most powerful, I've disproven.

Well, there is no contest for the 2nd place. Who's gonna be in it? Thor? Hulk? Lol, no. And the debate is ongoing, we just went off-topic.

I have already stated Hulk is superior to Wanda because him solo stomping Onslaught (completely destroying his armor) was more impressive than Wanda and Wonder Man V.S. Morgan Le Fey. Hulk got much stronger after that during WWH and Thor still surpasses Hulk anyways so both would be above Wanda's consistent showings.

What gives you the idea that Wanda can't solostomp Onslaught? She has been consistenly shown superior to both Thor and Hulk, and that Morgane Le Fay fight happened before Wanda even realized her true potential. I mean, if her true potential can stomp Galactus, it can certainly stomp Thor and Hulk.

Wanda has never stomped Galactus, nothing suggests that she would even contend, but Thor has battled Galactus, Thor lost but still put up a fight, Wanda has never even faced Galactus so that automatically disproves it.

Wanda humiliated numbers of Galactuses throughout alternate realities without even realizing it, so...
And if Hulk can stomp Onslaught, he is superior to Thor, because Onslaught destroyed Thor before he fought Hulk.

Nothing suggests that she would even contend?! Yeah, because beating an abstract entity while being depowered isn't impressive to put her on par with Galactus...

That was Thor before the Odin force and has defeated Hulk numerous time so he is comparable or even stronger than the Hulk and regardless both are superior to Wanda.
Name one cosmic abstract Wanda defeated.

Regardless, neither one of them have feats on her level. Not even at base level.
She has defeated Chaos, who is superior to Mikaboshi. Yes, the same Mikaboshi who destroyed Gaea, Thor, Hercules, Odin and every single Pantheon.

Mikobushi lost through PIS, how is someone that has the power of 99% of the Marvel Multiverse get defeated by anybody except someone with 100% of the Marvel universe in power, so that can't be used worth anything and it wasn't Wanda alone. Chaos is essentially featless.

Mikaboshi didn't devour all of Marvel Universe. Common misconception. He just devoured mainstream Multiverse, when he crossed over to the other side. So what if he's featless? They can't just build a story around a character they would use once.

Wanda never defeated Chaos, and that "thing" wasn't exactly proven to be Chaos. Either ways, True form of Mikaboshi AKA the Chaos King is above "Chaos" because he is an aspect of Oblivion. Wanda would get godstomped by Oblivion who is superior to the Living Tribunal.

You're saying false things again. I've debunked your statements twice already, so why do you bring that up again? And what does Oblivion have to do with this? Or LT? And Chaos > Mikaboshi. Stop. Denying. Facts.

@Soulcollector
Can you even say Base Wanda is universal? I don't remember the last time she destroyed a universe. Even as HOM, she warped the 616 Universe, but not many others. At most, she can be low-multiversal.

Chaos King >>> HOM Wanda and Oblivion >>> Life-Force Wanda. Chaos King is an aspect of Oblivion and destroyed 99% of the mainstream Marvel Multiversal. Either way, his feats add up to more than anything any Wanda has done, and even if she did defeat someone who was stronger than Mikaboshi, it would be PIS. However, she didn't even defeat him and even if she did, as I said, it would be PIS. Plus, the guy was never proved to be above Chaos King.

@Akhil, why are you in this debate again? If you want to debate, go on Discord. This is not your forum.
And she is high multiversal, at worst. Quit saying bullshit which I have disproved already.

I never said the entire Marvel Multiverse, I said 99% and nontheless he still only lost through PIS. And they don't need to build a whole story around him, they can give him feats within the period he is used, but they didn't and no feats means no feats, which is why Mathew Malloy and SPOM are shat apon by everyone here because no feats, Chaos shouldn't be given a special pass if other characters like him don't.

Wanda never destroyed the 616 universe. She warped it. Anyways, Odin is above Wanda. He has more hax and is more experienced with it.

That doesn't make sense. Chaos appeared only in one story, and he should be treated like he was treated in that one specific story. SPOM and Matthew are different because they appeared in more.
Akhil, you're wrong, Wanda > Odin.

@soratoumiga - I have agreed with you many times, however, I cannot do so on this topic considering she has never even destroyed one universe fully, let alone 1,000+
Secondly, not right now. Spidey and Noah are debating about Thor and Sentry again...

@AkhilPDX, @Sora has a point but this is my forum and I've let it pass before with other's interfering I let @Windshadow do it once and I'll give @Akhil the same pass because it's only fair.

Not only did she destroy 1000x of them, she destroyed infinite number of them.

They're debating again? Good thing I left the server.

2. Again, that's an assumption, unless it said somewhere that NMM stole MJJ powers then it never happend and if it never said he lost them, then you should LOGICALLY assume he still possess his powers, no longer debateable.
3. The phoenix is one entity that spreads around every dimension, not fractions of itself thats how Omnipresence works. Even if what ypu are saying was true then that means nothing at all, this "main" Phoenix you are suggesting has no feats so we can only go off the "fractions" of its power have been capable of showing because FEATS. There is only ONE Phoenix that simultainiously exists across every universe that's how Omnipresence works and if your assumption would mean nothing anyways because defeating the Phoenix means ypu defeated it, that's wraps, it even says that the Phoenix "contains and represents all of the psychic energy across the Multiverse" there is only one, if it is killed or defeated, then it is killed or defeated across all universes because it's a cosmic singularity meaning one and only one no fractions, done deal.

Okay, you clearly don't know what PIS is... It's like a solar system level character, who has been consistenly shown to be that powerful, beating a multiversal character, for example. Wanda is not one of those characters, so your assumption that all of HoM was PIS is ridiculous.
2. It's never said that he lost them, but logic says that he did.
3. First, Phoenix Force has been shown to be superior to all of Multi-Abstracts. Second, White Hot Room, where the Phoenix Force rests was UNTOUCHED by the previously mentioned Chaos Wave, and as I sad, Chaos Wave affected omniverse and all of higher dimensions (10D, 11D, 12D). This alone tells us that PF lives in a higher dimension that not even the Chaos Wave could reach. And Chaos Wave reached pan-dimensional realm. Case closed, Phoenix Force is a singular entity as a whole.

Firstly, since you're using HOM Wanda, she is not a superhero, she is a villain so your argument was invalid from the jump, but I'll still play with you. Plot Induced Stupidity, is when a character that uses power nowhere near their consistent showings one time, firstly Wanda never affected the Omniverse like you have said except this one time, never before, and never after so it was a one time showing of power outside of your normal consistent showings, HOM was a plot device used to get rid of useless characters, so PIS. Odin and Seth's battle was not PIS because Odin has multiple showings of that power, such as putting out the world tree fire, the fight with Seth of course, and casually removing the 10th realm from the world tree and placed it in a completely different universe outside of the 616 continuity, that's 3 feats on that level, not PIS, all Wanda has to her name is HOM and nothing else she has done even came close, PIS.

2. You should logically assume he still has them (we will just never agree on this I guess since we have different logics).
3. If the PF was unaffected in the first place why bring it up.

Firstly, Wanda affected the omniverse during House of M. Second, you just said House of M was a PLOT DEVICE. Maybe, but plot device is something COMPLETELY different from PIS, sa, no, not PIS at all. House of M went through a lot of retcons, the last retcon says she can repeat it over and over again, but she won't, so she wouldn't go apeshit insane again.
Putting out a World Tree Fire? Destroying a dimension?! That's on multiversal level?! No, absolutely not. Odin and Seth's fight was allegedly threatening EVERY plane of reality, while all of those Odin's feats that you've numbered were nowhere near as powerful as that. Your argument is invalid, not even Scarlet Witch can threaten every plane of reality, however, she can put out a World Tree fire and destroy a dimension with her eyes closed. These feats are so far from each other in terms of destructive capability.
2. Fine, agree to disagree.
3. Mine argument was that the Chaos Magic is equal to Phoenix Force, and Wanda wields it. So that's why I brought it up.

The World Tree houses nine realms EACH with an INFINITE amount of dimensions in them, with is Multiversal+ and if each of those has an infinite amount, then so does the tenth realm, so Odin moved a realm with an Infinite amount of universes in it so that is a base Multiversal feat because infinity, and it perfectly correlates, because he easily moved that one realm of infinite dimension (reality manipulation, moving a universal construct I never said he destroyed it and Wanda never destroyed a universe so ***** noise*), but had trouble with the World Tree fire because it was 9x as many realms each with an infinite amount of universes in them, not only are both Multiversal, but they are also consistent within themselves Wanda never did any of that you assumed she could do so nothing worth of value is there in your claims and you said it yourself Wanda couldn't even affect "every plane of reality" Odin did that so you just proved Odin is superior to Wanda, case closed.
2. Alright then.
3. No, it isn't, a random robot's theory is not evidence of anything because it is an unproven theory, and nothing in the scan you showed even remotely suggested he was referring to Wanda's chaos wave. And even if Wanda's magic is equal to PF well, the Phoenix got bodied by Galactus and Thor managed to topple Galactus giving him a slight challenge whereas the PF did not. Wanda's chaos magic is not equal to the PF.

Holding an infinite number of dimensions in one realm is one universe, so destroying one of Nine Realms is a universal+ feat. Destroying nine of them is 9x universal+ feat. And you have to prove that each of those realms hold infinite number of dimensions, and even if you prove that, it doesn't mean he's multiversal. Again, wrong. Wanda destroyed 616 universe and created House of M universe. Odin did NOT affect every plane of reality. Did he affect Overspace? Did he affect Oblivion's Realm? Did he affect Beyond Realm? HELL NO! So, no, he's not as powerful as you claim him out to be. Not even close in fact. Wanda at least has some feats on omniversal level.
3. Phoenix bodied Galactus and Thor (Thor got destroyed by noobs who don't even know how to use Phoenix Force) got bodied by a STARVING Galactus, and White Phoenix is superior to all Abstract Entites. And Chaos Magic being equal to Phoenix Force is not a theory, it's a fact. Said so by narrator, and Chaos Magic is the only thing that hurts PF. Case closed.

The 616 universe is one universe. You lowballing Odin's feat still is 9 universes, Odin has a feat 9x that of Wanda. And the battle with Seth affected all of the main Marvel Multiverse and all the realities within it, Oblivion, Beyond, and Overspace exist outside the Marvel Multiverse so of course they wouldn't be affected by it. And White Phoenix is an amped Phoenix Force (additional Psychic energy then what it normally has), we are talking about the standard Phoenix Force without amps, and Galactus defeated the Phoenix. And guess what, one of them got defeated by Hulk and it was a low showing for Thor, so you further proved it, and the strongest of those "noobs" (Cyclopes) had only a planetary feat whereas Thor is casually Galaxy level based off scaling from Silver Surfer who is Solar System to Galaxy level, so Thor losing was a low showing since Thor is consistently Galaxy level.

Too bad that she didn't only destroy 616 universe... She did far more than that. Anyway, her warp reached Overspace, which Odin's PIS feat did not. Wanda > Odin. Case closed. Low showing for Thor? Cyclops Phoenix is far above planetary level, it's not even funny. White Phoenix is just Jean Grey completely merged with the Phoenix Force.

If White Crown is fused with Jean Grey, that is a HUGE amp, because Jean is one of the strongest Telepaths in the Marvel Multiverse and the Phoenix feeds off psychic energy so it's a huge amp, and destroying is superior to warping.

Yes, Jean is an incredibly powerful mutant and a telepath, but compared to Phoenix Force, she is weak. It's not really a huge amp, when you think about it. If the whole entity merges with her, it gives only a small amp, regardless of her power level.

I get what you're saying but, you have to add in the fact that Jean has been connected to the Phoenix for a VERY LONG time and has absorbed some of the Phoenix's power which only seems logical as Jean has increased in power since her mergence with the Phoenix along with their perfect chemistry, but regardless of how big or small the amp, it is still an amp none the less and the White Crown only surpassed the other abstracts AFTER the fusion, but like I said an amp is still an amp.

I honestly think Phoenix Force surprassed other Abstracts before the fusion, but nonetheless, you're right about that. If we look at the bigger picture, all of Abstracts were born from the Phoenix Force, so that must mean it surprasses them, even without the Jean (or Hope) fusion.

Even if that's true, creating something doesn't mean you are stronger than it, but the other Abstracts where not born from the Phoenix, in fact the Phoenix is one of the younger abstracts and it's further proven because Eternity was one of the first abstracts created, his siblings as well, along with LT (and every other abstract) all spawned to represent a concept of the Multiverse, the Phoenix is only psychic energy none of the abstracts are born from other abstracts so the Phoenix is not the mother of any.

Can we continue this tomorrow? I'm too tired.

@Sora, just saw this but yeah we can pick it back up tomorrow.

I forgot about this. Wait a sec, so Phoenix Force wasn't the first Abstract entity (After LT of course). How come? Wasn't it stated a couple of times that the reason the Abstracts exist is mainly Phoenix Force.

No that hasn't ever been stated, and it wouldn't make any sense at all if that was the case. The LT was obviously the first we agree with that as fact as the judge of everything, but there were many more Abstracts that came before the Phoenix, like Oblivion, he is the nothingness, and before there is anything there must first be nothing so he came from that, Eternity and Infinity where the next because they represent time and space along with it's never endingness. So all o that came before the Phoenix which embodies all the psychic energy of the Multiverse and couldn't exsist if there was nothing there yet, if anything the other abstracts created the Phoenix since it is very young in comparison to the other abstracts this is further evident by it's naive nature when it first came to be being fooled by simple mortals, it eventually learned from it's mistakes, but the Phoenix was not the first, and definetly didn't birth any of the other abstracts.

Goku vs Superman (even though I've proven it multiple times) I'm saving Goku vs Hulk for when I battle @TheNemianLion again (he is busy with @SirSpidey). Start it off.

I know you have beaten me in the past on this but I think I could do it this time (gotta leave t 10:30 tho)
First Superman at base is able to shatter a small part of reality , Hold a 3D infinite book , (Although not canon I'm scaling him to this version) Was able to Pierce through Emperor Joker , Split Soulfire Darkseid in half (a multiverse being) and can withstand magical blows from Wonder woman and Aquaman without much injury .If you need the comic issues I'll gladly try and provide them

But understand some of these feats aren't Earth 1 Supes . I'm scaling him off of them as he fought them and won

You don't have to give me the scans, I'll take your word for it. Lifting strength doesn't correlate with attacking strength so even if he did it doesn't mean much in a confrontation, but we have to add in context seeing as that he barely budged it and it was Ultra Man that lifted it fully and even if Superman defeated him, that shows Lifting has very little to do with striking and still that would be infinite 3rd dimensional whereas Goku's peak is 4th dimensional with his Super Saiyan multipliers ng him above infinite 3D. Superman piercing a piece of reality is a strong feat but still doesn't allow him to contend with Goku, Super Buu did a similar feat back during the Buu saga when he escaped the HBTC by yelling and Goku during the Buu saga stomps on that Buu not to mention him becoming much stronger through out Dragon Ball Super. Emperor Joker is non cannon, nuff' said neither is Soul Fire Darkseid, and finally Aquaman and Wonder Women are comparable to Superman (both are weaker IMO but I'll go with it) and if Sups is weaker than Goku, than Aqua and WW would be also.

How did he barely budge it? He and Shazam lifted it off the ground . Reason Superman let go was because Shazam couldn't sustain the pressure . And Shazam is said to have Nigh - Infi ite strength . So sSuperman is stronger than that . Ultraman is weaker than Supes as Superman has Overpowered him on many occasions. I said Emperor Joker and Soulfire are noncanon . I was comparing the Supermen of those realities to canon Superman . Superman is also faster than Goku as he can keep up withFlash .

I admitted Ultra Man was weaker, I just used it to back up the lifting vs striking strength. He had help from Shazam meaning sups could not do it on his own and when you said he had to stop because Shazam couldn't handle it, that further proves he could not do it on his own otherwise Shazam getting tired wouldn't matter but it does because without him Sups can't do it so the feat was not a solo one and can't be used regardless and an outlier feat. You can't scale non-cannon to cannon in a debate with the cannon variation it's just not how it works otherwise I can use Goku from the movies and that's a gg in favor of Goku, non cannon feats can't scale to cannon because then s*** would get crazy and Deadpool solos everyone lol. And Superman kept up with Flash while Flash was holding back, can't be used either, and speed won't have much to do with it plus Goku is faster, Jiren moved within the absence of time logically meaning he speed surpasses the 4th dimension and Goku could later keep up with a stronger Jiren who was not holding back as much.

No... Supes let go because his friend got hurt . Not cause he couldn't do it alone
Well I guess I won't scale it to non Canon . That was my hope of victory *sigh* I'll continue this debate as soon as I'm done playing with my bro . Let me finish off @Nemian real quick

His friend got hurt, that's cool and everything but the fact that he needed his help in the first place proves he couldn't on his own, otherwise after he attended to Shazam he would have continued with lifting it, but he didn't, further proof he couldn't do it alone.

Didn't Ultraman get to it right after Supes and Shazam let go? That's possibly the reason

I mean okay, but he never did it on his own so, the verdict still stands.

He asked Shazam cause he thought he would need his help . Yet Superman held it for like 2 seconds before he went to help Shazam . Then Ultramn (who is weaker ) lifted it up and straining his entire body

You're making a looot of assumptions with no evidence, and no he asked for help because he needed it, what you said doesn't make sense, if he thought he couldn't chances are he couldn't so even with your assumption Sups couldn't do it alone, has he defeated Ultraman, yes, does defeating someone make you stronger, no. Superman didn't do it HIMSELF and nothing suggests he could, so the verdict still stands.

Fine .
I'll do this tomorrow at 8-9 can't debate you and @Nemian at the same time . While playing battlefront . So if you aren't on here tomorrow I'll continue it the next time you are on

But Hulk is much faster than Going LOL he is 133 Sextillion tiems light

I won't be on until next weekend because of school, but hey I'll happily disprove it again when I return on November 2nd.

Okay see you then

Stan WAS the author, if he was still writing it would be completely valid evidence.

(My point is, author statements are valid evidence)

The ratings are confusing, we'll never really know what that's all about, and as for the misinformed people can't do anything about that.

Um... I ain't good (I'm trash) with Naruto when it comes to debates, but here I go
Prime Itachi because F Sasuke.
Nagato, because I like his name more.
Jiraiya, because his hair looks cool.
Hashirama, because Hokage's are pussies.
I agree because I like Guy.
and finally Hashirma, because I have to stay consistent.
(I'm not trying to be an ass, I just lack heavily when it comes to Naruto knowledge)

Well, how about a Dragon Ball debate that basically never gets talked about.
•••
Like...
Buu Arc Krillin vs Final Form Frieza
Goten and Trunks (Not fused) vs Perfect Cell
Shin vs Super Perfect Cell
Or anything that you can think of

@Batman
Frieza Saga Frieza (lol) still demolishes Krillin even in the Buu Arc for three major reasons
1. He did nothing credible in terms of feats so it safe to assume he didn't get ant stronger.
2. He is much older and gave up fighting to raise his family.
3. He stopped training, and in Dragon Ball if one no longer trains (just like in real life) they get weaker and this is proven when Yamcha struggled to lift a dang boulder and failed to defeat a typical sea creature.
Goten and Trunks would lose to perfect Cell via scaling, Majin Vegeta during the fight with Buu was stated by Piccolo to be equal in power to SSJ2 Teen Gohan during the Cell fight, and earlier he one shotted both Goten and Trunks so it's safe to assume they are weaker than SSJ2 Teen Gohan who was equal to Cell.
As for Shin, I assume you mean the Kiao Shin and he get's stomped by Super Perfect Cell Goku threatened to kill Shin and he backed off out of fear, and this Goku was weaker than Majin Vegeta all before Majin Vegeta even became SSj2 Teen Gohan level (he ate a senzu) who was equal to Super Perfect Cell no contest there.

We'll start off with, what do you mean by powerful? As in destructive capability? I assume this is current Doctor Strange. Scarlet Witch's greatest feat is HOM and even then it didn't show and destructive capability just a warp, I'm also going to be assuming you did mean destructive capability because if that's the case Scarlet Witch doesn't have any real notable destructive feats, but Doctor Strange can be argued for. Give me some examples/feats that in your mind tells you they are the most "powerful".

Yes, destructive capability. And I actually mean Classic/Composite Strange, because I honestly don't see a reason we shouldn't use him. Scarlet Witch's HOM warp was also a destructive feat, and besides that, she has many great destructive feats.
-
Doctor Strange
He was able to beat Galactus. https://imgur.com/a/xYWmSeR
The only Avenger, except for Scarlet Witch, that would be considered as one of the most powerful is Thor, and he was proven to be inferior to Galactus, when he got his ass handed to him by a Starving Galactus, and that was an amped Thor. So, except for Wanda and Strange, there is no Avenger posing a threat to Galactus.
He was fighting In-Betweener, who's somewhat equal to Galactus, or even superior. https://imgur.com/a/xYWmSeR
The Strange has been consistenly shown as a threat to Dormammu himself, and Dormammu is a pretty powerful character, considering he fought Eternity twice, and defeated Eternity once.
One of my favorite feats from him is him getting noticed by the Living Tribunal, which probably no other Avenger can accomplish. https://imgur.com/a/xYWmSeR
The

-
Scarlet Witch
Let's get something straight about her. House of M is repeatable. It was implied, TWICE, that she is able to repeat "No more mutants" and House of M over and over again.
Scarlet Witch was able to stalemate Morgane Le Fay, who had the Twilight Sword with her (meaning Morgane was on the level of Surtur and Odin), and that happened BEFORE House of M. https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11132/111321350/5842880-_fvuwt7ttns.jpg
And, pretty much throughout Avengers v. X-Men (2012) we can see that she has been FEARED by the Phoenix Five, group of beings who casually stomped Thor and half of X-Men and Avengers.
And, to show how powerful her reality warping is, Doctor Doom, master of prep time, was unable to counter her warping even with prep time.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11132/111321350/5842880-_fvuwt7ttns.jpg
And, also a mystical weapon created by DORMAMMU, and that weapon was able to stomp magical beings throughout Marvel.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11132/111321350/5842880-_fvuwt7ttns.jpg
And, yet, Wanda, destroys that weapon with utter ease.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11132/111321350/5842880-_fvuwt7ttns.jpg
And, all of this didn't include House of M.

And, as always, the site is being a dick, and won't let me post more links. Do you still have Discord?

I don't like the Discord server, so I have since stopped using it and I will only use this website
If it's classic Doctor Strange then there is no arguing because he stalemated LT so he is the strongest, there's not even a debate to be had there, and if Doctor Strange is the most powerful by default (since you are using classic strange feats) Wanda can't be the most powerful if Strange is more powerful.
And for Scarlet Witch (if we're being honest it shouldn't be used because the whole thing was just an excuse for Marvel to get rid of unused and useless characters so if anything it's a plot device, and even still that is the only thing she did throughout the whole story worth a mention, Spider-Man did more then her) House of M did NOT kill anyone nor did it even hurt them, all it did was remove their powers not a destructive feat if nothing was destroyed and even if it was repeatable doesn't matter if nothing was destroyed. She did not stalemate her, she was only weakening her not the same thing, not to mention she was assisted by Wonder Man who is known for absorbing energy, and what feats does she have on the levels of Odin and Surtur? Doom being unable to counter it has nothing to do with destructive capability, all that means is it's fast. The other feats don't mean much if the scans aren't shown, I know it's not your fault but I just can't agree or disagree with those points if the website messed the link up.

Okay, House of M wasn't just about erasing mutants' powers. It was more, and it had many tie-in stories. And Morgan was amped by Twilight Sword, which Surtur wields, and the same Surtur was feared by Odin. And that puts her on Odin level. Keep in mind all of this happened prior to House of M. And the scan shows that her energy blasts/Chaos Magic were doing significant damage to Morgan and her own blasts.
-
Anyway, since you brought up the House of M, it had many, many destructive feats and the links to those feats shall be posted seperately.
1. Her Chaos Wave was a threat to all of "Creation", it was said so by Roma, an omniversal guardian. She lives in a pan-dimensional realm, which, by definiton is a realm existing and pertaining from all other realities, which means it transcends the concept of Multiverse.
2. Spell "No more mutants" or whatever you want to call it affected Mad Jim Jaspers who was located within that realm. This clearly shows us that her power reached a realm beyond the Multiverse.
3. Roma also stated that the Wave was going to devour all of "Creation", and I'm pretty certain she meant Omniverse, or at least infinite Multiverse when she said that.
4. Scarlet Witch's "NMM" and tampering with the reality pushed the Phoenix Force, an entity unbound by dimensions, out of space and time, and it really pissed Phoenix off.

Not to mention the fact that Chaos Magic was said to a force balancing the Phoenix Force, which means that Chaos Magic, in its fullest potential, is completely beyond dimensional scaling.

P.S. The Wave that I was talking about earlier literally collapsed all higher dimensions into, putting it above Multiversal in power.

Pushing out the Phoenix doesn't put her near those levels because Phoenix was stomped by Galactus who was stalemated by Odin during an encounter. Tie in stories don't mean much, just because Roma was outside of the Marvel Multiverse doesn't mean anything about her power level just her realm of existence and that doesn't correlate with power in anyway. The Twilight sword was not in her possession during the scan so it doesn't mean much, Odin may be slightly fearful of Surtur but that doesn't mean he is as strong as Odin. During a battle with Seth Odin (and Seth) were threatning to destroy the entire Marvel Multiverse, Morgan has no FEATS on that level only a STATEMENT about her power, and if she was able to fend off the X-Men and Avengers that doesn't put Morgan (with the sword mind you) near Odin levels of power because Onslaught accomplished the same thing with his own power alone so Morgan would be around Onslaught levels (when he first appeared) and Onslaught got demolished by a savage Hulk meaning Hulk posses more power Onslaught (whooped his ass) who is equal to Morgan based of feats which makes Hulk more powerful than Morgan and henseforth more powerful than Scarlet Witch and even more so after the Planet Hulk event. MJJ is weaker than Odin. And like I said if you are using composite Strange he is more powerful so Wanda cannot be since "the most powerful" can only be given to one person not two.

I meant two most powerful Avengers.

The story with Morgan happened before House of M. Wanda wasn't even able to warp reality at the time, and she was still fighting high-tier characters. There is absolutely no way Odin is stronger than Mad Jim Jaspers, MJJ is a threat that dwarfs Odin, Thor and the whole freakin' Asgard, along with the Avengers combined. And also, Roma wasn't the one who was responsible for such a high end feat of Wanda. She's the one who simply stated it. And I've already explained, if the Wave reached a realm beyond all dimensions and realities, it means that it can destroy all lesser higher dimensions, putting it on a high hyperversal level. Since you don't like those VSBW terms, it basically means she can destroy a higher dimensional infinite multiverse.

Scan 1. They were pissing their pants over a sentinel... nuff' said.
Scan 2. That's all too small to read, and Mad Jim Jaspers didn't look at all concerned about what was going on so yeah.
Scan 3. The robot said it himself, It's a theory, meaning it's not a fact just a theory, it holds no weight, and the power he was referring to was the Phoenix's not Wanda's.

1. You don't know the context of the scan. Sentinels are there because of Wanda's fuckery. And they are irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. My point is that the warp was threatening to destroy all of Creation and Roma (the lady with long hair) was considering to DESTROY 616 universe so the warp wouldn't destroy the Omniverse.
2. MJJ is there because he needs to be there. The scan shows this... "... the Omniverse was recently swept by a Wave of unimaginable power..." and "... that re-arranged every bit of it."
3. It's not a theory, it's a fact. Why else would Phoenix Force be so pissed at Wanda for doing all the stuff to mutants.

That doesn't take away from the fact Hulk is more powerful, Mad Jim Jaspers was never stated to be a threat to anything on that level, Odin's power threatened to destroy the Marvel Multiverse where as Mad Jim Jaspers' only notable feat was creating his own pocket dimension, Odin removed and entire dimension from the world tree and sealed it away in it's own little pocket those feats are equivalent BUT Odin didn't struggle with it and Mad Jim Jaspers needs something to be there to warp otherwise he is useless, in fact that's how he was defeated during his introduction.
1. That still doesn't prove anything, you can't just take the word of someone who appeared once and take it as truth, hell even if Roma was in a lot more stories nothing she said has been proven so her word means nothing.
2. Doesn't matter why he is there if he seems calm and not worried that means he isn't sweating Wanda's power.
3. The robot said that himself, that it was a theory. If the originator of the statement admitted it was a theory, it's still a theory that's wraps. And Phoenix being mad is just because it is a construct of emotion and psyched a LOT of mutants have wielded the power of the Phoenix and it is still attactched to all of those hosts, how would you feel if someone starting neutralizing your friends, you'd be mad too. And if it is mad, so what, doesn't prove anything. This statement doesn't even matter because what he said, he had admitted himself was a THEORY so it is, can't argue that.

Mad Jim Jaspers has been stated to be an omniversal threat FOUR different times. For ****'s sake, the guy created a robot that stomped every superhero (including Odin) in 238 universe. And I don't even want to start debating on what he has been stated to capable of doing in 616 universe. Odin never threatened to destroy Marvel Multiverse. He is multi-universal, at the very best. Which is FAR below MJJ. MJJ is leagues above Odin, they're not even comparable. The guy no-sells everything thrown at him, what would Odin do?
1. Except that the narrator also said the Wave was a large threat.
2. He was resurrected before the Mutant Massacre (HoM); and once she said "NMM" he never displayed any of his mutant abilities.
3. Okay then, Phoenix Force is equal to Chaos Magic. What do you say about that?

Odin has threatened to destroy the Marvel universe, it happened when he battled Seth (his brother who is equal in power) during Journey Into Mystery #513, so yes he has. Give me the four times Mad Jim Jaspers was stated to be Omniversal, and if he was, then how come he died? Because he clearly isn't, he needs matter around him in order to do anything in the first place (proven when the machine HE created (The Fury) from a different timeline took him to a place the void of anything and killed him) If he was Omniversal that wouldn't have been the case, and I don't even know why you brought up The Fury (his robot) in the first place, because it was stronger than MJJ, that's like saying the gamma bomb created the Hulk so therefor is stronger than him, The Fury was stringer than MJJ so that doesn't help your point and the machine killed all heroes Odin is not a hero he is a god and really doesn't help anyone but himself, that's a wrap.
1. The Narrater said it was a "large" threat, okay the word large is very vague so you can't use that, Elephants are very large doesn't make it a Multiversal threat, that's a wrap.
2. He didn't show any of his powers before that so that literally doesn't mean a damn thing.
3. If it was equal to The Phoenix Force, it would still be weaker than Odin who stalemated Galactus (through telepathy mind you, even making Galactus think he was still Galan) and Galactus defeated The Phoenix Force without much effort so the PF would be weaker than Odin meaning if the chaos wave was equal to the PF than it to would be below Odin.

There was no evidence in that comic book issue about Odin and Seth being able to destroy Marvel Multiverse, so no, he's not multiversal. Highballed Odin is multi-universal. What the hell does the fact that he needs matter to warp reality have to do with him being omniversal? Literally read every Marvel handbook, and you'll see he has been called an omniversal threat every single time. The Fury only teleported MJJ into void, where there is nothing to manipulate, and when MJJ was rendered powerless, Fury just incinirated his brain, nothing more. Fury is NOT more powerful than MJJ, he just used his weakness to defeat him. And Thor is a god, and he gets stomped by MJJ, what's your point with that? 238 universe was destroyed because of Jaspers. Odin was in that universe. MJJ > Odin. Period.
1. I said "large", because I was too lazy to write "Omniversal threat". The narrator has called it omniversal threat, that's what I thought.
2. Until he shows his powers again (which will likely happen when Marvel runs out of ideas), he lost them on M-Day.
3. You do realize that every time Odin, Galactus etc encountered Phoenix Force, it was just a miniscule, insignificant fraction of the true Phoenix Force? True Phoenix Force is above Odin's or Galactus' comprehension, and Chaos Magic is equal to it.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11130/111302800/5853993-422194-multivershakinghitsu.jpg
In the bottom right hand corner of the page reads "...and causes a massive which ripples across every plane of reality!" Multiversal based off that statement (from the narrator) alone.
Then how come MJJ couldn't kill the Fury? The Fury was created to kill anyone, Mad Jim Jaspers is anyone job completed. And even if Earth 283 universe was destroyed by MJJ that doesn't mean much, because earth 616 Odin is completely different.
1. The narrator never said Omniversal, prove it.
2. In the scan you showed me MJJ is levitating in THAT SCAN which is one of his POWERS he was using, so therefor he STILL has them because he displayed that by levitating, that's wraps.
3. Prove it, prove that the Phoenix Force is stronger and that it was using only a fraction of it's power.

Correction: Massive Wave*

Okay then, the clash of the two would destroy every plane of reality? PIS. Hella PIS. In no way would their fight do that, it's impossible. That would put them on the level of the Living Tribunal.
Fury was created by MJJ to kill anyone with superpowers, except himself. However, due to plot devices, the "heroes" managed to make Fury think MJJ is a threat, and since Fury knew MJJ's weaknesses, he just used them to kill MJJ. That's pretty much it.
1. The second scan I sent.
2. Eh, I just told you, her was resurrected BEFORE "No more mutants". After that, he merged with the Fury and never displayed any of his previous abilities, so therefore, he doesn't have them, unless Marvel decides to retcon that, which they usually do.
3. Phoenix Force has a fraction in every reality, universe, plane of existence etc, so there is one for 616 reality and other realities. However, those are JUST fractions, the true Phoenix Force is beyond all dimensional limitations, proven by this scan:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/arQn2o9R286S2JVRsprQ81071AXGSea-GHumpoFHhF-_k9JVqvgkAQ3xxp_CbAnJq00Rmnohq5k5=s1600

HA! You wanna call Odin vs Seth PIS, the entire ******* House of M story was PIS and a lame excuse to get rid of unused characters, No More Mutants was complete PIS, how do you go from bested by the X-Men main roster to removing the powers of 98% of the Mutant Population, oh I know PIS, get outa here with that, and LT exceeds Multiversal (High Multiversal) he shut down the infinity gauntlet that Thanos smacked around all the cosmic abstracts with it which are mostly all stronger than Odin (why even bring him up) so that still puts LT above Odin either way.
1. Still can't read that, it's too small.
2. That doesn't make any sense still, just because a hero is no longer seen in ANY OTHER comics doesn't mean they lose their powers, LT (Adam Warlock) has not been seen in any comic for a long as time and hasn't displayed his powers since his last appearance and didn't even show anything then, does that mean he lost them? NO.
3. That scan proves the Phoenix force is Omnipresent that's it, now the people that created the Phoenix may be as powerful as that, but the scan doesn't mean the Phoenix Force is.

*sigh*
There's no ******* way an insignificant being like Odin would be able to affect all planes of reality. Do you understand what that means?! It means he can affect all higher dimensions, which he usually can't, and never got even close to be capable of doing. Same with Seth. And what the hell? What does House of M have to do with this? It's not PIS. Never was and never will be. PIS does exist, you know, you can't just say "get out of here with that". If we include PIS feats, Sentry would be multiversal reality warper.
1."Recently, a temporal wave swept through the OMNIVERSE..." You can even just google "resurrection of MJJ" and see on the pics.
2. Nice try, LT (Adam) is a different thing. He has appeared multiple times after getting his new title.
3. Now, you're just nitpicking. It literally says that PF exists throughout all of Marvel, and that it has a specific fraction in every reality. Period.

You just called Odin mother ******* Borson insignificant yet argue for WANDA, that show where you are right now mentally, explain how the hell it isn't PIS. Because it looks a whole lot like it.
1. Even still, that doesn't show prove he lost his powers.
2. I was using that as an example which it still applies.
3. That's not nitpicky, I used the scan YOU gave me, so that's on you not me, because that was YOUR evidence.

Odin is a ******* Asgardian, he's insignificant compared to the likes of Living Tribunal, Eternity, Phoenix Force and many others. Not to mention the fact that his best showing was putting out a fire that threatened to destroy Ygdrassil, something that is much weaker than the feat you sent me. It's not PIS (plot induced STUPIDITY) because it makes sense.
1. How?
2. How does it apply?
3. The scan shows and proves my point. You're trying to find the fallacy in there, which really doesn't exist.

Yes STUPIDITY the entire House of M story line is STUPIDITY, Wanda got real shitty one started to cry and then all of the sudden she get's the power to remove 98% of the mutant population's powers, and the only justification is that she got depressed, stupidity in a nut shell.
1. It never specifically said one time that he lost his powers so he hasn't.
2. You are assuming he lost his powers because he hasn't been shown using them, LT (Adam) hasn't been shown using the power of LT so therefor he must have lost them, that is your logic. Just because someone hasn't used them, doesn't mean they no longer posses them.
3. I'm not trying to find a fallacy in the scan, the scan says the Phoenix was created across all realities or something like that, Omnipresence, YOU said in your statement the Phoenix stronger than Galactus and all that, and then used evidence that didn't support it, so I found the fallacy in your statement.

Her being so powerful was implied from long before House of M. She was only mentaly unstable, for, you know, losing her children, ex husband, friends etc., so it's perfectly REASONABLE for her to be that powerful, it's not stupidity. Not everyone can control the power to um.... shift reality.
1. The point of the scan was to show you that writer said it's omniversal. My task here is done.
2. Living Tribunal is different. He is literally feared by other Abstracts. And no one cares about MJJ. I'm not saying that he lost them, but if we look at the big picture, he did lose them. If he still had them he would be another omniversal threat, but he isn't.
3. "...so that it existed on every plane of reality simulatenously.", "...like a cosmic lynchpin threaded through the Multiverse". My point for this scan was to show you that Phoenix Force has FRACTIONS in every reality, and that's proven by the first quote. Meaning, all of those fractions are lesser compared to the true form of the Phoenix Force.

When was it implied? In what comic did it say "Scarlet Witch could potentially remove the powers of 98% of the mutant population." The only notable feat that would imply that was her vs Morgan Le Fay but even still Hulk had a similar (I'd say a more impressive) feat when he stomped Onslaught but even then it wasn't implied that he'd be able to curb stomp the entirety of Earth's heroes during World War Hulk, when and who had implied Scarlet Witch could potentially reach those levels of power before HOM?
1. Okay fine, I'll have to take your word on that since I can't see it and can't confirm or deny.
2. It doesn't matter what power they posses, assuming that a character "in the bigger picture" as you said has lost their powers simply because they have not displayed them since a certain event doesn't imply at all that they could potentially no longer posses them. Like you said no one cares about MJJ which is the only reason he has not shown his powers, because he hasn't even been seen since then, it has nothing to do with him losing them, him not being used in anything else.
3. That doesn't imply fractions, that implies Omnipresence meaning it exists on every plane of reality at the same time EQUALLY, meaning if the Phoenix is defeated or killed in one reality the same goes for all the other planes it is existing on because it is a cosmic SINGULARITY, meaning one.

Ever since she was seen manipulating Chaos Magic, it has been implied that she can warp reality itself. Now, no one knew she would eventually get overwhelmed by the power and that she'll get insane, but still.
2. Then does he still have powers? Or not? This is a typical example of Schrodinger's Cat. He could have retained his powers, he could have not, or both. Until they reveal that, it's unknown and could be both.
3. It doesn't mean they exist equally in every plane of reality. The can differ, but the point is there is one, big Phoenix Force which pulls the strings, and lives beyond dimensional scaling, albeit controlling all those Phoenix Force fractions.

After I'm done with Spidey, Soul... YOUR NEXT! *Spears him into the ring, glaring at him, picks him up and hits the jackhammer, pinning him, then leaves the ring walking to the back* (I'm The Goldberg of SHDB)

I am Paul Heyman the advocate for the beast incarnate. You want your rematch? Then we'll settle this at DebateMania 35, where you will meet your demise at the hands of none other than SOUL COLLECTOR! *dana, da da da da, dana, da da da da*

Gladly will

This ain't gonna be a 40 year old man against a 50 year old man though, this is going to be a slaughterhouse!

Okay @MOP what do you want to debate on?

Fine, I'll do it myself, Thanos with IG is stronger than Specter with a host.

Is UI Goku more powerful than Vegito blue? Also isn't Super Saiyan God SS Vegeta equal to Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken Goku?

Also Thanos with IG would probably win against Spectre with host though the host can put up a fight. Unbound Spectre > Multi-Eternity >> Thanos with IG > Spectre with host > Eternity.

UI Goku is stronger than the last time Vegito fused (it was during the Goku Black Saga) but if Goku and Vegeta were to fuse again right now I think they will come close to it, the reason I say this is because Whis (and all other angles) have complete mastery of UI and are so ridiculously far above gods of destructions and Vegito was equal to, or very to Beerus (one of the strongest) then UI Goku would win, UNLESS it times out like it did while fighting Jiren. Vegeta SSGSS Vegeta is equal to Kiao Ken SSGSS Goku, but ONLY after Vegeta mastered SSGSS and became Ultra Blue or whatever you want to call it (the form was never given an exact name).

Who's the weakest character that can defeat Super Buuhan?

Also what are the top 20 most powerful DB characters ever?

The weakest character that can defeat Buuhan is SSJ Vegito when they battled. SSG Goku casually defeats him also.
1. Zeno, 2. Grand Priest, 3. a tie between all of the angles, 4. UI Goku, 5. Jiren, 6. Beerus/Vegeta, 6. Belmod, 7. Toppo, 8. SSGSS Vegito (Goku black saga) 9. Kefla SSJ2, 10. Aniraza, 11. Fused Zamasu 12. Hit, 13. Golden Frieza, 14. Goku Black, 15. Kale, 16. Gohan, 17. Android 17, 18. Dyspo , 19. Android 18, 20. Ribrianne.
This is how I see it, but don't trust me on it this was off the top of my head and could probably change.

Ok thanks.

But I personally believe The Grand Priest is stronger than Zeno and we are just lead to believe Zeno is the strongest when really he is second.

What about Super Shenron?

Super Shenron is probably relative to Zeno, perhaps his equal, but we don't know enough about it to accurately scale it, but since the Dragons are only as strong as their creater he is probably close to Zeno.

Why do you think Grand Priest is stronger than Zeno? What evidence supports that? Also, on your top 20 list, shouldn't Caulifla be above or equal to Kale?

@LordTracer, Caulifla is weaker than Kale but comparable, this is further proven when Goku took on both of them at the same time and Caulifla was taken out first, she may be a better fighter, but in terms of raw power Kale is superior. And for the Grand Priest, there is no real evidence, it's more a theory and speculation, but for proof during the TOP there was 2 of Zeno meaning Zeno is confined to time. whereas there is only 1 Grand Priest so it can be assumed the Grand Priest is on a higher plan of existence and henceforth stronger, and that he was just following Zeno's lead as like a Whis and Beerus type relationship. But there is no real concrete evidence or proof, it's just a fun theory to think about.

But didn't SSJ2 Caulifla casually deflect a blast from LSSJ Kale? Also, just a random question, do you think it would be cool to see LSSJ Kale fight LSSJ Broly?

Well deflecting a blast doesn't necessarily mean you are stronger, during the Broly Second Coming movie Krillin deflected a blast from Broly a much, much stronger character, and Piccolo did something similar in the first Broly movie. That fight sounds really cool and I'd like to see it, but it would be a stomp in either way. If it is Broly from DBZ, Kale stomps, but if it's Broly from the upcoming movie then he stomps Kale, but it would be fun to see.

Eh, I guess you're right. But isn't Piccolo comparable to DBZ Broly? And with what we saw from the trailer, DBS Broly seems comparable to LSSJ Kale. Broly seemed to be fighting Super Saiyan Blue Goku, and Kale kinda wrecked Blue Goku.

Piccolo is nowhere near movie Broly, because he took on all 5 Z-Fighter at once and slapped them away, 2 of which were stronger (Vegeta and Goku) and two that can be argued (Trunks and Gohan), and other evidence is Goku casually deflected all of Frieza's death beams but paled in comparison to Frieza until he achieved Super Saiyan. Broly was contesting with SSB Goku in his base, and hadn't yet transformed so it can be said he was much stronger than Kale after he transforms. And Kale fought a suppressed Goku who was reserving his full power because you can clearly see Goku has no scratches or marks, not even torn clothing, and SSB Goku fought a suppressed Jiren for an extended period of time but Kale got one shotted by him, so scaling off Jiren, SSB Goku at full power would casually beat berserker Kale.

Not to mention after the TOP Goku trained a whole lot (that is all he does) so the Goku SSB would be much stronger than the one that fought Kale, and Broly was contesting a stronger SSB Goku in his base.

Isn't Super Piccolo is above Broly? Broly's a multi-solar system to galaxy buster, Piccolo is a universe buster.

Also (this might just be me), but Piccolo should be comparable to Goku and Vegeta.

@LordTracer, Piccolo is Dragon Ball Super is a lot stronger than DBZ Broly, I was comparing Piccolo from the Broly movie to Broly not the Super version. And Piccolo was at one time comparable to Goku and Vegeta, during the early Android Saga when his power (after fusing with Kami) rivaled the Super Saiyan transformation in power, but after the HBTC training in preparation for the Cell games the gap widen very much so and as the series continued the gap in power kept getting wider and wider.

Oh, well in the Broly movie, he's definitely weaker. I meant isn't DBZ Piccolo, at the end of the Buu Saga, comparable to Broly. And I know Piccolo was comparable to the two, but I think he should always been around their level. That's mainly because he's my favorite character, but he kinda was Goku's original rival, he should always be around his level.

Oh, you're saying he "Should" I fully agree, but the writers will do what they want, and the crazy part, Piccolo could have had the chance to be their rival, because in an interview with Akira Toriyama, the original story for the Majin Saga was that Piccolo was going to get taken over by Babidi, but they decided to go with Vegeta instead, but Piccolo should be comparable (same with Tien, but that's my biased side talking).

I hope Piccolo learns something that makes him comparable to the Saiyans. I watched a theory video where Piccolo learns Kaioken, and he becomes the strongest warrior. I don't think he'd be the strongest, but Kaioken Piccolo would be around Goku and Vegeta's power level.

That would be cool to see, or if they give him his own "god" form like they did with Frieza's Golden form.

Oh, yeah, Piccolo could become a Super Namekian God, and that could make him Saiyan-level.

Well I'm leaving shortly so, this'll have to wait until next week.

That is a personal opinionated belief and one can only argue something that is factual like if x is stronger than y, that is something debatable, but saying a character is the most interesting is an opinion and can not be argued under any certain matters, I believe Eternity is more interesting than Thor, but that is personal opinion and cannot be argued against since it comes down to preference.

How is Eternity more interesting than Thor?

Well considering he is the embodiment of space itself, along with his capabilities, the design his character in general. And like I said this is opinion I find space a lot more interesting than Norse mythology and gods such as Thor, you obviously feel differently and that cannot be argued because it is all opinion.

In my opinion, Eternity looks cool, but his character itself is kinda boring even if he's really powerful. I find Chaos King more interesting since his character is very gripping. Again, my opinion.

Well his character itself is a little boring, the reason I find Eternity interesting is what he is suppose to represent, with him being the embodiment of the universe's infinite size.

Still, I stand unopposed, anyone brave enough to debate me?

That's right, we're going onto a serious topic here

That is a cartoon, with no connection to comic books, this is meant to be serious, and that would mean Dr. Doofenshmirtz, is Omnipotent since it is never specified how large the tristate area in the show actually is and we can assume it is Omniversal in size because their summer vacation is 1000x longer than an actual vacation on Earth, and I just can't believe that.

This isn't about Doofenshmirtz, and Phineas and Ferb have a comic book, so yeah (Phineas and Ferb Comic Reader #6: The Beak Strikes!)

I know, I was scaling Phineas off of Doofenshmirtz, and he has shown nothing on that level.

Sorry, I'm wrong. If we're comparing Phineas to Doofenshmirtz, then Phineas is Universe or higher because the Accelerateinator and the Do-Over-Inator are capable of destroying spacetime if they malfunction)

But he was effected by both of those, so Phineas would be below that.

Who was affected? Also I gtg, I'll be back soon

Everyone except Doofenshmirtz, even Perry was affected, see you later.

I can't actually remember the debate but I know for a fact that I've beat you .

Prove it. XD.

Yes, I've on occasion beaten all of the top guys, the only one I can't say I've beaten is SirSpidey, mainly because we almost never debate each other (we agree on a lot of stuff) and the times we have it was nothing serious or only something trivial, but Nemain, MOP, Tracer, and all that jazz I have.

Wait I'm a good debater?

When did you debate Nemian?

@MOP, you are better than a large majority, so I'd say yes.
@DarkProdigy, I've debated Nemian countless times.

No, I mean when did you beat him. I know you beat him, I believe you, I just want to read the debate

Cool.
I really think I raised my self up there in the at least top 20
I've beaten a few of the best as well

Vegeta vs Doomsday
Lionman in a gauntlet match against the villains of Dragon Ball (it was before he gave him that ridiculous power boost)
and, I can't remember the exact debate, but it was a team battle that involved Thor and a handful of other overused powerful characters.

I wish I could say I've beaten the best :( Wait who did you beat?

@LordTracer
@Nemian (Oc Match so I don't think that counts)
You

I'm nowhere near the best lol
Wait when did you beat me?
And yeah, OC matches count as debates

@MOP, you have not beaten me. You informed me of something I wasn't aware of, which made me change my vote. There wasn't a debate.

All I know is that Oblivion is a brother of Eternity and is equal to him, but it took cosmic armor Superman to defeat him (who is a plot device) so I'll probably agree with that also since I don't look into this kind of stuff.

Mandrakk defeated Spectre and Radiant(equal to spectre). It's more of a curbstomp.

I agreed with you because I have no idea about these characters, hard to argue something you know nothing about.

I agree, LT is weaker than both.

THANK YOU!

My power chart also came to that same conclusion, so that is what I'm going with (I trust it).

I don't. XD

Well it proved your point, and if you don't trust something that is the same as your belief, then that means you are questioning yourself and are not entirely sure on what you believe.

Get this dead meme out of here

I was joking @Soul.

Well It didn't seem like it, because of your earlier comment on my forum and you creating a separate forum emphasizing the word "Tier", sorry for misunderstanding.

It's just a place for everyone to share tier lists. You can too. I haven't created mine yet. I just copied one from the internet so people can get an idea.

Well I already shared mine, but I understand now, my bad.

Steel is around Superman's level, and he is not even the most powerful, so Steel is in fact weaker.

https://www.superherodb.com/forum/why-shaquille-oneals-steel-is-the-most-powerful-character-in-fiction-satire/100-3364/ clearly the strongest in fiction /s

That is satire, meaning it is a joke that cannot be taken seriously, and none of it is cannon so no, he is not.

Yeah...I made that the original statement was more of a parody of SirSpidey saying Thor is the most powerful...also all canon (but PIS and shouldn't be used, also /s means sarcasm)

well other than this, every suggestion on this forum I agree with.

Oh..well even I don't agree with it XD it's a meme

I understand it is a meme, but I have to accept all challenges no matter how ridiculous they may be (racking up as many W's as possible lol).

This depends on your definition of Superhero, and is it within the realm of Marvel or just in general?

Franklin Richards is a SUPERHERO and while Thor is STRONGER he is not more POWERFUL, power is different from strength he is not the most POWERFUL.

But other than him, I can't think of anyone else.

My definition of superhero is someone who fights solely for the cause of justice. This includes any Universe. And this isn't just about who is more "powerful", but really about who would win. What are some notable feats of Franklin Richards that would make one suggest that he would beat Thor?

Well he is not technically a SUPERHERO since he is in the realm of the cosmic abstracts and serves a duty greater than that of good and evil, but mainly his reality warping and as a mere child he created an entire universe because he was board and while RKT would likely beat him, but if we are talking about normal Thor he would lose because of ass pull, other than him (I was stretching it a little when calling him a superhero) I cannot think of any SUPERHERO in either Marvel or DC that would beat Thor on a consistent bases, meaning 6/10 times, so he is the strongest SUPERHERO.