Odin "Doesn't Cthulhu Control The Universe ?"
Well no, he doesn't, at least not in any significant way that's relevant to scaling. The extend in which Cthulhu and the other Old Ones control the universe is through knowing all things in it and influencing what happens across it, which doesn't really tell us much of anything in terms of whether The Great Old Ones can significant effect the universe in terms of alteration, destruction, creation and anything meaningful to scaling purposes
At most this would give Cthulhu and The Great Old Ones High 1-B range as the universe in Cthulhu Mythos is an infinite-dimensional structure. That aside though, this doesn't mean anything for scaling and thus we can just disregard this for any indication that Cthulhu holds cosmic destructive power
"Aren't Atoms In Cthulhu Mythos Immeasurable Layers Into Boundless ?"
This is got to be the most ridiculous claim among the ones I've seen in this sub. This is going to be less of knack on Cthulhu Mythos and more so an attack on the stupidity known as "Atom Scaling" because I genuinely can't believe people use these type of arguments but don't think for like 2 seconds as to what the major problem with them
Let's first address one thing. In Cthulhu Mythos, whenever "atoms" are mentioned, it's meant to be in a metaphorical context and often times is in reference to the fractal nature of the multiverse and it's dimensions. One of the most basic examples of this is in The Whisperer in Darkness, where the following is stated:
"I have said that there were things in some of Akeley’s letters—especially the second and most voluminous one—which I would not dare to quote or even form into words on paper. This hesitancy applies with still greater force to the things I heard whispered that evening in the darkened room among the lonely haunted hills. Of the extent of the cosmic horrors unfolded by that raucous voice I cannot even hint. He had known hideous things before, but what he had learned since making his pact with the Outside Things was almost too much for sanity to bear. Even now I absolutely refuse to believe what he implied about the constitution of ultimate infinity, the juxtaposition of dimensions, and the frightful position of our known cosmos of space and time in the unending chain of linked cosmos-atoms which makes up the immediate super-cosmos of curves, angles, and material and semi-material electronic organisation."
As you can say, the mention of "atoms" here is meant to be a metaphor for how the unending chain of universes are pieces of a "super-cosmos" that holds these space-times as atoms within itself. This isn't saying that they are contained in atoms as opposed to that just being a basic comparison to highlight how small these seemingly large universes are in the grand scheme of things
This would align perfectly with the fact the statement of all things infinity just being essentially infinitesimal cross-sections that lead to "archetype infinity", in reference to The Ultimate Mystery (or Yog-Sothoth basically), the only genuine infinity in Cthulhu Mythos
"Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality."
So with that being said, there's nothing that states that the basic atoms that exist in the verse contain universes or any cosmological structure within them. The mention of "atoms" have always been metaphorically speaking to denote the small scale of the cosmos that is known by humanity and was never meant to be in a literal sense
Odin "The legend of Yig, Father of Serpents, remained figurative no longer, and I started with loathing when told of the monstrous nuclear chaos beyond angled space which the Necronomicon had mercifully cloaked under the name of Azathoth."
How about the fact that the Doels are mentioned with the Hounds of Tindalos despite neither having any real correlation to one another, with the former appearing in the Space Eaters, which isn't relevant to the Hounds of Tindalos beyond the fact both exist beyond space-time
At the end of the day, the thing that H.P Lovecraft meant to do when he mentioned Cthulhu and flaring stars in the same breath is to convey a sense of Parallelism, in other words, bringing two elements to create a sense of equal importance between two or more things
What's interesting is even if we assumed the statement was in a literal sense, there's still two fundamental issues that come with saying it scales to Cthulhu
We don't know how Cthulhu was exactly able to cause the stares to flare and not enough details are given to provide an Occam's Razor scenario for what is most likely to have been the method in which Cthulhu effected these stars
It's highly likely that a cosmic calendrical ritual was the cause behind it, as indicated by the references to stars always being related to such events in Call of Cthulhu
To expand on the second point, here's a passage from Call of Cthulhu that highlights what I was conveying and is essentially what I was referring to:
"Old Castro remembered bits of hideous legend that paled the speculations of theosophists and made man and the world seem recent and transient indeed. There had been aeons when other Things ruled on the earth, and They had had great cities. Remains of Them, he said the deathless Chinamen had told him, were still to be found as Cyclopean stones on islands in the Pacific. They all died vast epochs of time before men came, but there were arts which could revive Them when the stars had come round again to the right positions in the cycle of eternity. They had, indeed, come themselves from the stars, and brought Their images with Them. These Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape—for did not this star-fashioned image prove it?—but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R’lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them."
As you can see here, whenever stars are mentioned, it's usually a buzzword for some cosmic ritual that relates to the summoning or resurrection of beings beyond our understanding. In this particular case, when the stars and the planet align in the right positions, mystical arts could be used to summon or resurrect them
This once more is important because the flaring of the stars and the arrival of Cthulhu could be just that, an event that happened at the same time as Cthulhu's summoning that was essentially a calendrical event caused by rituals. Either way, nothing supports Cthulhu destroying stars, the contexts behind it is indicated to be more akin to parallelism as opposed to a literal event that Cthulhu caused and even in the case we assert Cthulhu was the caused, we don't know how he did it, meaning it shouldn't scale to Cthulhu
Well no, he doesn't, at least not in any significant way that's relevant to scaling. The extend in which Cthulhu and the other Old Ones control the universe is through knowing all things in it and influencing what happens across it, which doesn't really tell us much of anything in terms of whether The Great Old Ones can significant effect the universe in terms of alteration, destruction, creation and anything meaningful to scaling purposes
At most this would give Cthulhu and The Great Old Ones High 1-B range as the universe in Cthulhu Mythos is an infinite-dimensional structure. That aside though, this doesn't mean anything for scaling and thus we can just disregard this for any indication that Cthulhu holds cosmic destructive power
"Aren't Atoms In Cthulhu Mythos Immeasurable Layers Into Boundless ?"
This is got to be the most ridiculous claim among the ones I've seen in this sub. This is going to be less of knack on Cthulhu Mythos and more so an attack on the stupidity known as "Atom Scaling" because I genuinely can't believe people use these type of arguments but don't think for like 2 seconds as to what the major problem with them
Let's first address one thing. In Cthulhu Mythos, whenever "atoms" are mentioned, it's meant to be in a metaphorical context and often times is in reference to the fractal nature of the multiverse and it's dimensions. One of the most basic examples of this is in The Whisperer in Darkness, where the following is stated:
"I have said that there were things in some of Akeley’s letters—especially the second and most voluminous one—which I would not dare to quote or even form into words on paper. This hesitancy applies with still greater force to the things I heard whispered that evening in the darkened room among the lonely haunted hills. Of the extent of the cosmic horrors unfolded by that raucous voice I cannot even hint. He had known hideous things before, but what he had learned since making his pact with the Outside Things was almost too much for sanity to bear. Even now I absolutely refuse to believe what he implied about the constitution of ultimate infinity, the juxtaposition of dimensions, and the frightful position of our known cosmos of space and time in the unending chain of linked cosmos-atoms which makes up the immediate super-cosmos of curves, angles, and material and semi-material electronic organisation."
As you can say, the mention of "atoms" here is meant to be a metaphor for how the unending chain of universes are pieces of a "super-cosmos" that holds these space-times as atoms within itself. This isn't saying that they are contained in atoms as opposed to that just being a basic comparison to highlight how small these seemingly large universes are in the grand scheme of things
This would align perfectly with the fact the statement of all things infinity just being essentially infinitesimal cross-sections that lead to "archetype infinity", in reference to The Ultimate Mystery (or Yog-Sothoth basically), the only genuine infinity in Cthulhu Mythos
"Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality."
So with that being said, there's nothing that states that the basic atoms that exist in the verse contain universes or any cosmological structure within them. The mention of "atoms" have always been metaphorically speaking to denote the small scale of the cosmos that is known by humanity and was never meant to be in a literal sense
How about the fact that the Doels are mentioned with the Hounds of Tindalos despite neither having any real correlation to one another, with the former appearing in the Space Eaters, which isn't relevant to the Hounds of Tindalos beyond the fact both exist beyond space-time
At the end of the day, the thing that H.P Lovecraft meant to do when he mentioned Cthulhu and flaring stars in the same breath is to convey a sense of Parallelism, in other words, bringing two elements to create a sense of equal importance between two or more things
What's interesting is even if we assumed the statement was in a literal sense, there's still two fundamental issues that come with saying it scales to Cthulhu
We don't know how Cthulhu was exactly able to cause the stares to flare and not enough details are given to provide an Occam's Razor scenario for what is most likely to have been the method in which Cthulhu effected these stars
It's highly likely that a cosmic calendrical ritual was the cause behind it, as indicated by the references to stars always being related to such events in Call of Cthulhu
To expand on the second point, here's a passage from Call of Cthulhu that highlights what I was conveying and is essentially what I was referring to:
"Old Castro remembered bits of hideous legend that paled the speculations of theosophists and made man and the world seem recent and transient indeed. There had been aeons when other Things ruled on the earth, and They had had great cities. Remains of Them, he said the deathless Chinamen had told him, were still to be found as Cyclopean stones on islands in the Pacific. They all died vast epochs of time before men came, but there were arts which could revive Them when the stars had come round again to the right positions in the cycle of eternity. They had, indeed, come themselves from the stars, and brought Their images with Them. These Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape—for did not this star-fashioned image prove it?—but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R’lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them."
As you can see here, whenever stars are mentioned, it's usually a buzzword for some cosmic ritual that relates to the summoning or resurrection of beings beyond our understanding. In this particular case, when the stars and the planet align in the right positions, mystical arts could be used to summon or resurrect them
This once more is important because the flaring of the stars and the arrival of Cthulhu could be just that, an event that happened at the same time as Cthulhu's summoning that was essentially a calendrical event caused by rituals. Either way, nothing supports Cthulhu destroying stars, the contexts behind it is indicated to be more akin to parallelism as opposed to a literal event that Cthulhu caused and even in the case we assert Cthulhu was the caused, we don't know how he did it, meaning it shouldn't scale to Cthulhu