Tyrannus
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Tyrannus

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_Holy_Joe_
Tyrannus
2 year member
What's it you like the most about Cyclops?
show 3 replies
Tyrannus
Tyrannus
All his life he's always tried to help mutant-kind. Despite being betrayed and attacked by Wolverine and the Avengers he still saved mutants from the brink of extinction. He's never done anything wrong yet he's hated by many people in universe and in real life. Everyone ignores all the people killed and lives ruined by Wolverine and Scarlet Witch (Wolverine wanted to kill Hope, a child, in AvX) yet Cyclops accidentally kill Professor X in self defence while possessed by the Phoenix and saves mutants children from racist police and he's the terrorist? Despite all that he takes the hate and continues to saves innocents whoever they are. #Cyclops was right.
_Holy_Joe_
Tyrannus
2 year member
Quite an amazing story. I respect Cyclops even more after hearing that.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus
Glad you think so. I honestly believe he's THE greatest character in all of comics
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 1 mo 6 d
Tyrannus
@Tyrannus I came here to apologize for being disrespectful, hurling insults, and straight up spamming on the Thor vs Hulk page; you have no idea how sorry I am for going crazy there and I hope you can forgive me, I've deleted and edited many comments on that page to clean it up a bit.

Here's some tips I have for you: 1: don't accuse people of cherry picking a character's best victories against another character you accused me of doing that on the Thor vs Hulk page when YOU were the one who made the fanboyist claim that Thor has never beaten Hulk. 2: don't use non canon material even if it's a what if for reasons I'm about to give. 3: don't say "I know A character can do X" or something like that, it makes you look like an egoist. 4: read a comic about Thor, you know absolutely nothing about the God of Thunder. The reason I say this because you deny major aspects of him like him holding back against mortals Examples of Thor holding back 1: Breaking Into Comics the Marvel Way: here we have a statement from Thor Odinson himself "I lost control and got caught up in the furry of the moment" _Thor Odinson. Thor must keep control over himself or he would be an even bigger threat to mortals than the enemies he fights. Civil War: all we have here is a statement from Captain American "Thor once told me that no mater how powerful a mortal might be, he'll only use a third of his power; even at the risk of losing a battle, for fear of killing them" _Steve Rogers. Incredible Hulk 440: "I have restrained myself in battling the Hulk for years for fear of loosing my control" _Thor Odinson. After this Thor goes Warriors Madness and battles Hulk to a stalemate before the government nukes the both of them to stop there fight, Thor (2007) #3 "this time I am no longer holding back" _Thor Odinson. Thor then beats Ironman into submission. And you also misinterpret other aspects of his character the example I have is: you think General Grievous can beat him because "he'll underestimate him" even though A: Thor might be arrogant but he's not dumb, he'll obliterate Grievous as soon as he figures out Grievous is a threat to mortals, remember if he was so dumb that he'd let Grievous kill him then why is he the greatest warrior of Asgard? B: Thor has survived being in the sun _God of Thunder by Jason Aaron and survived the might and heat of the Phoenix Force Itself. Please learn about the characters before you do anything with them.mI'd gladly finish that debate if you want, I swear I'll be MUCH more respectful this time and won't repeat myself. Okay? I'll also change my opinion if you can prove to me that Hulk stomps every time like you said he would.
Last edited: 1 mo 5 d ago.
show 31 replies
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 1 mo 6 d
Tyrannus
1: Hulk will always get stronger

Rebuttal: no limits fallacy! Hulk will ALWAYS get stronger. By that logic could beat The Presence via always getting stronger while The Presence won't be. WBH is supposed to be the most powerful Hulk can get in Earth 616 unless you can prove otherwise it's the strongest Hulk can get. Thankfully for you the feats from WBH in Heart of the Monster prove that he could easily take down Thor, Superman, and Wonder Woman, heck he could probably solo the base forms of those three at the same time.

2: Hulk is immortal

Rebuttal: 1: I still don't understand how him refusing to die makes him immortal; by that logic is anyone who refuses to die immortal like a cancer patient? And before you say "the patient won't live forever Hulk will" uh, no which brings me into my second point. 2: Hulk also ages which means he's not immortal, before you say "the writers drew him older to show the passage of time" any proof of that? They could have shown the passage of time in so many other ways but they conveniently chose the one that proves he's not immortal 🤔. 3: He's also died in Earth 616 canon which proves he's not immortal. Come at me with more fodder arguments I dare you!

3: he heals better than Thor/Superman/Wonder Woman/etc

Rebuttal: that is true. Hulk has one of the best healing factor's in Marvel; even better then Deadpool (who literally can't die unlike Hulk who can) and Thanos. Clark and Diana need time to heal up while Hulk doesn't. Thor's healing factor is impressive 1: he regrew his teeth and bones after being tortured by angels _Thor (2018) #6 2: Thor regrew his liver after having it turned into glass _God of Thunder (Jason Aaron) 3: he restored his heart after being impales in the chest almost instantly _Astonishing X-men #83. I can here you asking "hey genus why can't Thor regrow his eyes?" It's very simple: when he lost both of his eyes during Ragnorok (Thor #80 to 85) he made a permanent sacrifice to the Well of Mimir to gain heightened wisdom. When he lost his eye in Thor: The Reigning he didn't have time to heal it before going back in time and undoing all his actions. When he lost his eyes in War if the Realms he once again made a permanent sacrifice this time to the World Tree. So, please don't use Thor's spiritual journeys to lowball him

4: Hulk doesn't get tired

Rebuttal: that is true as long as he stays angry his endurance is limitless but his rage ain't limitless like many people think otherwise he'd be the Hulk forever and wouldn't revert back into Banner midfight.

5: Hulk always wins a fair fight (against Thor)/Thor has never beaten Hulk properly.

Rebuttal: I've gave you the numbers where Thor beats Hulk in either a fair fight or where Hulk had the advantage; I'd also like to add on Thor: The Reigning (where Thor KILLS the Hulk; has Hulk ever killed Thor in Earth 616 canon? Heck no he hasn't), Thor #489 (where Thor gets an uperhand on Hulk crushing him between rocks and would have probably killed him had Hela of not intervened, both Thor and Hulk were stated to have been suppressed during that fight), and Avenger season 1 (the comic) (where Thor solos both Grey Hulk and Savage Hulk). You might want to rethink some of your statements. And yes I have read all the comics I've just mentioned and made my own assessments, my review of all Thor vs Hulks is still coming out.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 1 mo 6 d
Tyrannus
6: Banner holds back Hulk

Rebuttal: that is true and it's stated in Heart of the Monster but his control has to be very very limited otherwise why would Banner allow Hulk 1: throw people and other gamma messes through building 2: violently attack other heroes (many of which Banner is friends with) 3: threaten civilians just to make Thor drop his hammer 4: force Tony Stark, Dr Strange, and a few other heroes who names I can't remember because of how long it's been since I've read WWH (who are all banner's friends) to fight to the death? Either Banner has extremely limited control over Hulk or none at all and those statements from HOTM are irrelevant.

7: I can use what if comics because they're what ifs meaning the regular version

Rebuttal: no they aren't: Hulk in Hulk the End had changed, there is absolutely no way he's the same as Earth 616 Hulk unless you can PROVE OTHERWISE! If I gained superpowers in another universe that doesn't mean the me here writing this comment can fly or move around planets; get your facts/canon right my friend. Now I say this one more time: stop. Using. Noncanon. Material. As. Evidence. Claiming. It. Counts. Because. It's. A. What. If. If you don't like that then just stop debating, leave this site, and walk off into the sunset with your own personal headcanon.

8: Hulk is much stronger and he usually fights alone while Thor has help against his foes

Rebuttal: That's the dummest and most fanboyist argument you've ever made even dummer than you thinking what ifs count. But let's see what Hulk takes on by himself 1: human soldiers (pfft even Nightwing could take down some of those guys) 2: Wolverine (someone who couldn't even destroy a building, Captain America can take down) 3: Red Hulk, Abomination, other monsters (these guys couldn't even destroy a galaxy while Thor has beaten universal threats) now let's see what Thor has taken on 1: the Frost Giants (a threat to the nine realms each one of those realms is an entire universe within itself) 2: Surtur (another threat to the nine realms) 3: the Dark Elves 4: Celestial beings (Celestials are comparable but slightly beneath Eternity himself) 5: Galactus (a multi universal threat) 6: Glory a being that is made of 10 thousands gods 7: the Chaos King (who he managed to stun by himself) 8: the Phoenix Force (a hyperversal being of life energy), Gorr the God Butcher who was killing entire pantheons of gods and goddesses. And most of the "help" he has is mostly just fodder Asgardians with swords and shields. Now do you understand why Thor is the universes mightiest hero while Hulk is only Earth's mightiest hero?

9: Savage Hulk could beat Thor he has no chance against WBH

Rebuttal: 1: again Thor while holding back soloed Grey Hulk and Savage Hulk _Avengers Season 1. 2: prove it.

10: slapping someone away isn't the same as defeating them. Thanos knows if he fought the Hulk he'd eventually lose.

Rebuttal: NOT. EVEN. CLOSE...this proves that you don't understand comic book scaling. 1: Thanos fearing Hulk doesn't mean Hulk could beat him; I could be afraid of a wasp but that doesn't mean that wasp could beat me in a fight 2: the reason Thanos just slaps Hulk aside is because he's so far above Hulk in terms of power that he doesn't even need to properly fight him; Hulk is an ant to him. Before you get salty that your favorite character can't beat Thanos remember, Thanos is a villain that requires EVERY SINGLE hero to fight ask yourself what the heck is the point of the Avengers if Hulk can solo Thanos and if he could solo Thanos than couldn't Thor and Silver Surfer (two characters that are often portrayed as equals to Thanos) do the same since they are on par if not > Hulk?
Last edited: 1 mo 3 d ago.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 1 mo 3 d
Tyrannus
11: "Hulk just wants to be left alone otherwise he'd one shot all his enemies"

Rebuttal: 1: I will admit that that's true, it's not always the case otherwise he wouldn't have wished for a realm where he could fight endlessly in Heart of the Monster he also wouldn't brutally attack Thanos every time they fight. Him wanting to be left alone isn't the reason he would hold back if anything it'll give him the willpower to fight harder than his opponent in order to get them out of his way. 2: if he wanted to be left alone and an angry Viking God of Thunder (Thor), the mightiest herald of Galactus a being who can contend/beat Odin, Celestials, Phoenix amped Rachael Grey, etc (Silver Surfer), a being who has the power of 1 million exploding suns (Sentry) are coming after him and he could easily take them down; guess what he'd do? He'll beat them all into bloody pulps, but no he can't do that because he's not as powerful as them.

12: "Incredible Hulk annual was a cheap shot"

Rebuttal: No, it wasn't. If you actually read the comic you'd know that Thor and Hulk were going blow for blow then Thor uses lightning to knock him out. Unless you count Thor using thunder powers as a cheap shot, it wasn't a cheap shot and if it was Thor is now the god of cheap shots. I asked on the battle page how was it a cheap shot but you never answered, Ive since deleted that and a few other comments because I said something about @Breaker not much smarter than Hulk in it. So I ask you one more time: how. Was. It. A. Cheap. Shot?

13 "political debates are calmer than comic debates"

Rebuttal: not from my experience; from my experience people cuss me out and accuse me of a lot of bad things that I'd rather not go into right now. But if political debates are tamer that's probably because most political debates are conducted between to mature adults.

14: Hulk the End was written to show us that Hulk is immortal"

Rebuttal: oh, so are all what if comics supposed to add to the main universe versions of the characters? Is Superman now secretly evil because of what ifs like Red Sun and Injustice? Is Earth 616 Black Widow now worthy of Mjolnir because she picked it up in a what if comic? Is Earth 616 Thanos now strong enough to kill the Living Tribunal because he did just that in Thanos wins? What ifs are something for fun, not meant to be used in debates.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 1 mo 3 d
Tyrannus
I really appreciate what you have to say. I'll try and keep that in mind in future. That already makes you a bigger person than 90% here.

Just wondering though you said don't say "A character can do X". I don't mean to sound like an egotist but there are some characters where you know they can do certain things (Darkseid's omega beams or the Flash being faster than Superman). However I am starting to see things in Thor's favour. I should add that I have read Thor comics as well as the Hulk. If you've read Hulk comics you'd know that Banner does hold him back to protect civilians and his friends.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 1 mo 3 d
Tyrannus
1. I think you meant OAA because the Presence is DC. Strength alone isn't always enough so he won't be able to do anything to the OAA.
2. Normal humans will still die eventually. We can resist terminal cancer to an extent but not natural causes. Hulk did. Writers tend to make mistakes when it comes to healing factors and immortality. It's like how Wolverine should always have a beard but doesn't for some reason or how he was able to survive without food by eating his own flesh. Also Hawkeye killed Banner in a way that didn't trigger him into the Hulk again (he was supposed to be cured of the Hulk but we don't know). As it is, Hulk won't die unless he allows it.
4. Hulks usually turns back to Banner when he calms down or someone just absorbs the gamma radiation from him.
5. During the reigning story line things were very different but like I've said I am starting to see things Thor's way.
6. It's true Banner's influence is limited but during the WWH story Banner had very good reason to be angry because by sending Hulk away they betrayed Banner too. Even then his rage wasn't so blind because he spared Namor because Namor didn't want Hulk to be sent away. There have been times in the past where Hulk would just stop fighting and leave when he saw civilians in danger or people he cared able. Rick Jones was able to do so reliably.
7. Before the explosion everything was the same as 616 earth. Hulk wasn't created stronger in that reality. The whole point of the comic was to show that Hulk is immortal. I'm happy to continue the debate because my example counts, are you?
8. This is actually one of my strongest points against you. Hulks known for wanting to be left alone and falling out easily with his allies while Thor is very well known for not just being an Avenger but a team player. I don't think Nightwing could take down whole battalions of soldiers with tanks and helicopters. Also fun fact, Captain America has never taken down Wolverine. Thor fights with Earth's mightiest heroes. The Spectre regularly goes after small time crooks and murderers primarily. Does that mean he's weak?
9. Hulk Let the Battle Begin
10. Your fear of the wasp isn't the same as Thanos's fear of the Hulk. Thanos tends to win because he's smart so removes Hulk from the fight or actively tries to avoid him. Even if the Hulk was allowed to fight Thanos fairly it wouldn't be easy at all. By the way I never get salty when someone puts down a character I like. They're not real so who cares. I like Hulk but he's not really one of my top favourites.
11. Hulk isn't smart like that. If he knocks his opponent down instead of pressing the advantage he'll just leave. He's been punished for that before because Thor, Red Hulk and others have hit him while he was trying to escape.
12. Thor's lightening him him from behind. It's not the worst thing I've seen but Thor needed to do that to get Hulk away.
13. I honestly have the opposite experience. I suppose it's because most of my political debates are in person and people aren't as likely to insult you to your face.
14. In the Injustice 1 game our Superman admits that had the same thing happened to him, he probably would have done the same thing. Did you find Red Son Superman evil? I'd say he was quite fair.
Dark_Wing
Tyrannus
"I really appreciate what you have to say. I'll try and keep that in mind in future. That already makes you a bigger person than 90% here."

Thank you for forgiving me for basically going Warrior Madness on that page. I also want to apologize for saying that Hulk from Hulk the End was Maestro Hulk and yes I have at this point read Thanos wins, Hulk #440, and Old Man Logan all of which heavily feature Maestro Hulk.

"Just wondering though you said don't say "A character can do X". I don't mean to sound like an egotist but there are some characters where you know they can do certain things (Darkseid's omega beams or the Flash being faster than Superman)."

I meant don't say you know say Superman beats Goku like how you said "I know Hulk beats Thor because he always gets stronger. Claiming you know something about a hypothetical battle kinda dose make you look like an egoist I'm aware of this because it's happened to me personally.

Also one more thing I'd like to say is this: Stan Lee created Thor because he wanted two things 1: a mythical god almost his answer to Wonder Woman in a way 2: a character stronger than the Hulk which he stated in an interview with this quote "I dreamed up Thor years ago because I wanted to create the biggest, most powerful superhero of all and I figured who can be bigger than a god." Also I believe Hulk's greatest assets in a fight are his strength and healing factor, Thor is not just the Norse god of thunder but he's also the Norse god of strength and healing; Stan Lee chose the best character to fight on par with and beat the Hulk.

"However I am starting to see things in Thor's favour"

Perhaps you could delete some of your more fanboyist sounding comments.

"I should add that I have read Thor comics as well as the Hulk"

Apparently not that many as you claim for the reasons I mentioned a few days ago.
Dark_Wing
Tyrannus
1: when I made that "Hulk will always get stronger until he could beat The Presence" I was being sarcastic as well as bringing up why no limits fallacies are bad and no I did mean DC's The Presence as he's confirmed to not be omnipotent, TOAA has been confirmed to not be omnipotent in Infinity Conflict but TOAA can't be harmed in any way shape or form while The Presence has been killed before. The reason no limits fallacies are bad is because one could make an argument for a character with no limits to beat ANYONE including beings who are far out of there leagues.
2: the cancer patients thing was just an analogy the question was really "is anyone who refuses to die immortal and how how dose him asking to die make him immortal? *did you just say normal humans won't die of natural cause?* Healing factor dose not equal immortality otherwise every character with that power would be immortal, as far as I know Deadpool is the only "mortal being" whose healing factor makes him immortal and that's mainly because Thanos cursed him with that to get him away from Death. Did it ever occur to you that Wolverine doesn't always have a beard because he shaves? The reason his hair quickly grows back whenever he's burnt to a crisp is probably because the writers want to draw him with hair because it looks better; but that's just my theory. I believe Deadpool was the one who ate his own flesh and Deadpool is literally all kinds of crazy. *And I wasn't referring to Civil War II, I was referring to the Onslaught Saga and Thor: The Reigning* I didn't know Banner could be cured of the Hulk because even after Silver Surfer drains Hulk he still comes back when Banner gets mad.
4: the point is if he had infinite rage he wouldn't stop being angry; right?
5: I know things were different in that story, I was just bringing up a time in Earth 616 where Thor beat Hulk. And please do NOT change your vote on the Thor vs Hulk battle because the comics often portray them as equals, and Thor VS Hulk: Champions of the Universe (a comic that was supposed to prove which of the two was superior) has the two fairing equally against the same enemies and ends with the two not being able to decide a superior between the two.
6: I'm well aware of his reason to be angry his family was nuked by the Illuminati but that still doesn't explain why Banner would allow Hulk to force some of the few people who like him to fight to the death which kinda proves how limited Banner's control must be. And I believe WWH was a much more intelligent form of the Hulk which is why he spared Namor but other than that he was pretty ruthless against Bruce Banner's friends. "There were times were Hulk stopped fighting because he saw civilians" is that why he has no problem throwing villains through buildings and using moves like the thunderclap in cities? Hulk gets caught up in the furry of battle, then stops when he sees those civilians.
7: I know that it was the same before the explosion, but why do you think Hulk: The End was solely written to prove he was immortal and why wouldn't they use an Earth 616 comic to prove that? I've also already debunked the healing factor = immortality thing.
Dark_Wing
Tyrannus
8: hey look you were the one who said that Hulk was stronger because he fights alone and I was explaining the power gap between Hulk's enemies and Thor's enemies bty I am NOT trying to say Thor is hyperversal because he injured the Phoenix Force and Chaos King, I'm also not trying to say Thor is stronger than 10 thousand gods because he drove off Glory and defeated Gorr; like I said this was just to explain the power gap between Hulk and Thor's enemies. I'm not sure if you have ever heard of sarcasm because I was being sarcastic with the Nightwing argument, but you never know Nightwing might be able to take down a small squads of soldiers and maybe highjack a tank or two but he couldn't do anything to the weapons the military sends at Hulk. "Cap has never beaten Logan" Wolverine Origins #20 Cap dose so while inexperienced, to be fair Logan didn't have Adiantum at this point but Cap did beat Logan BTY. And I believe only Jim/Hal/Crispus Spectre goes after regular criminals and that's mostly for revenge and stuff like that and that's mostly because The Presence sends him on those missions, nice try though.
9: what dose that comic have to do with Savage Hulk beating Thor?
10: yes, I'm well aware of that, my wasp thing was just another analogy. Intelligence on it's own isn't going to save Thanos unless he has the power to get Hulk out of his way. No matter how you slice it Thanos has always been more powerful than the Incredible Hulk; Thanos has easily defeated Gladiator, Silver Surfer, Indestructible Hulk, Adam Warlock, he did the same to a Warrior Madness (a times 10 amp) Thor, and the Champion (both Thor and Champion had the Power Stone during there fights with him), and went blow for blow with Odin and shrugged off hits from Galactus so he could beat Hulk with mid/low difficulty if they were both to fight fully. Fun fact: Thanos (to the best of my knowledge) has never directly stated that he fears the Incredible Hulk, he just said he tries to ovoid him for an unexplained reasons which leads a lot of Hulk fans to think he fears him.
11: one dose not need intelligence to slap someone like Thor or Sentry out of his way, one just needs the strength to do it which according to you claims he has that in his surpluses.
12: I supposed this now counts as hitting Hulk from behind plz reed da comik mi frend.
14: when did he say this? And how do you know that was the main Post Crisis? And no Red Sun Superman is kinda like MCU Thanos or Lord Thor from Thor: The Reigning as in he wasn't really a bad guy but the comic portrayed him as evil and told us he was bad and in the end it was an American comic going over a Russian matter called communism which isn't even that bad on paper but was pretty screwed up in practice for a bunch of reasons I shall not get into on @Galactus' site.
Last edited: 30 d ago.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 30 d
Tyrannus
I agree with almost everything you said except where you said Thor "Thor is not just the Norse god of thunder but he's also the Norse god of strength and healing". I'm not sure about that but even if that was true, Hulk's known for having the best healing factor in Marvel (juggernaut arguably has a better one). I will admit I have read more Hulk comics than Thor but that's because Hulk stories tend to be better.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 30 d
Tyrannus
1. The Presence died! How? That shouldn't be possible. Strength alone only gets you so far (e.g he would be able to hurt Kitty Pryde).
2. Almost all men will grow a beard if the don't shave as should Wolverine. I have proof from the 616 universe of Hulk's immortality as explained in the immortal Hulk comics; https://screenrant.com/hulk-comic-immortal-explained/
4. Needs a reason to be angry but he usually calms down when he realises it isn't getting him anywhere.
6. Banner's "friends" didn't like him enough to keep him on earth. They knew that by banishing Hulk they were sending Banner away too but they did so anyway. Hulk isn't smart. He'll stop when he sees people in danger but doesn't think far enough to know that his fighting may put civilians in danger.
7. I say Hulk The End proves his immortality because of how the comic ends. You haven't debunked the healing factor = immortality because Hulk's healing is different to Deadpool's or Wolverine's.
8. Thor and Hulk's enemies are different because of who they are. The Spectre is forced to always have a host which is why is very rarely unhosted but nice try though.
9. You asked for proof so that comic did.
10. There's a reason Thanos fears the Hulk and not the God of Thunder. He'll lose eventually which is why he removes Hulk or avoids him. Avoiding him sounds like fear.
11. Hulk can and does slap his opponents away then runs. You asked why doesn't go on to beat down his opponent. Hulk doesn't think like that, he sees an opening and he leaves.
12. I did read the comic and I still stand by what I said. Even that youtuber Imaginary Axis says Hulk was hit from behind by lightening.
14. You see our Superman and their Batman talking about it at the very end of the cut scene. Also if anything they put communism in a good light because Red Son Superman looked out for everyone while the American capitalists were on the attack.
Dark_Wing
Tyrannus
If you agree then please start deleting some of those fanboyist sounding comments before people start thinking that you're a fanboy. And yes Thor was the Norse god of strength and healing look it up.

https://www.superherodb.com/hulk-vs-wonder-woman-superman/90-325238/#

https://www.superherodb.com/thor-vs-hulk/90-69/

And you said "Hulk's stories are usually better." I have a question for you which Hulk comics would you recommend for someone who wants to get more into the Hulk as a character? I've already read World War Hulk, Planet Hulk, the comic run that introduced us Red Hulk (which I mainly did because three of its issues had Thor in them, and of course all those comics that had Hulk and Thor fighting so I could make my own list of all their fights.
Last edited: 25 d ago.
Dark_Wing
Tyrannus
1: well, it was very contextual as in he only died at the hands of a weapon of his creation and he later (after coming back) revealed that it was part of his plan later. Bty Hulk's strength isn't the only thing that rises with his rage, all of his stats do. If you want proof that here you go: 1: when Hulk isn't that angry Wolverine can keep up with and damage him but when he's extremely angry like in Indestructible Hulk he could race Mjolnir w weapon that could fly across the galaxy and come back in a minute. and keep up with Silver Surfer someone who can cross multiple galaxies in barley any time 2: when he isn't that angry his durability is so weak that Spider-Man and Iron Fist can hurt him but when he's extremely angry powerhouses like Black Bolt and Thor have trouble hurting him 3: when he's not that angry his healing factor isn't fast enough to save him from Wolverine's Adiantum but when he's much angrier he can almost instantly heal even from missing limbs. But yeah the only reason I brought up The Presence was to show why no limits fallacies are bad like I've said for the third time already.
2: yeah, I know I only brought it up because you said "Wolverine should always have a beard" and I explained why that's not the case. And that link kinda makes sense because Hulk was basically killed by the gamma bomb, whenever Banner dies the Hulk takes control until transforming back into a resurrected Banner and the cycle repeats. But that's not true immortality because he can still be killed if you overtax his healing factor; to be fair you'd have to be as powerful as Lord Thor (a Skyfather who surpassed Odin) or Onslaught (a being who wields the powers of Franklin Richards a kid who was stated to be equal to the Celestials who are comparable to Galactus) if you even want a chance of doing that. So in the end Hulk can be resurrected and the Hulk persona is immortal but Hulk can still die which I've already proven bty.
4: which theoretically shouldn't happen because if the Hulk isn't smart enough to beat down a Viking god he sure as heck would have trouble figuring out that being angry won't solve anything. And I was talking about how sometimes he'll switch back to Banner after a fight best examples of this are in Hulk #6 after him and Thor defeat Red Hulk, in Thor vs Hulk Champions of the Universe, and basically any time where Hulk is hit with an explosion that turns him back into Banner.
6: didn't the comic make it very clear that the Illuminati had not other choice because Hulk was too crazy and unpredictable? And yes that makes much more sense and is much more accurate.
7: how is Hulk's healing factor different from Logan's and Deadpool's other than it being tied to his rage while Deadpool and Logan's are always at full power?
8: same could be said for why Thor gets help while Hulk fights alone. And yes I know the Spectre must always have a host to balance out his need for vengeance and justice which I believe is nicely went over in one of the character files for the Injustice Gods Among Us mobile game which dose count because the Spectre is a nexus being (there is only one of him in the multiverse).
Last edited: 24 d ago.
Dark_Wing
Tyrannus
9: but that comic had nothing to do with Savage Hulk unless you're trying to say that Hulk was Savage Hulk. And wasn't that victory a cheap shot?
10: once again you're using the no limits fallacy that Hulk will always get stronger even though his feats clearly put him beneath Thanos and if he was always getting stronger by the second then why was Thor able to lock arms with him for an hour with neither of them getting an upperhand? Why was he subdued by chains in the first issue of Planet Hulk? And why was he defeated by numerous different heroes and villains? The fallacy based on what the writers said doesn't add up at all. It actually works like this: if Hulk doesn't get any angrier he could stay at the same power level but if Hulk get angrier then his power level rises but he isn't constantly getting more powerful as time progresses he's getting more powerful as he gets angrier but if he gets calmer he will start to weaken until he turns back into Banner. Understand? http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/33119/987832-613508_thn_super.jpg
11: oh, that makes perfect sense.
12: even though Thor was clearly in front of Hulk? Hulk saw Thor making the gesture and given his speed feats he could easily react to Thor's lightning and if Quicksilver can react to it Hulk should have no problem doing the sand. So it wasn't really a cheap shot unless you count hitting someone in the back as a cheap shot and even if it was it's not nearly as bad as what Hulk has done to Thor.
14: oh, I remember https://youtu.be/3cMJiObF_iY but how do you know that that was our Post Crisis Superman? And I 💯 percent agree with you on the Red Sun thing.
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Tyrannus 22 d
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Supporting a character doesn't automatically make me a fanboy. I haven't been disrespectful while making points about the Hulk so I don't think anyone's going to think I'm a fanboy. However I will look over them again and delete those that do sound bad.
The Hulk stories during and after Original Sin were excellent namely the Omega Hulk story. The Original Sin story really gets things of to a good start because it turns what you now on it's head (I won't spoil anything but it is good). I wouldn't recommend the Awesome Hulk stories, they were weird. Pretty much anything with Red Hulk is usually good. I have mixed feelings about Immortal Hulk. It's an excellent story but he's very different (maybe too different) to normal Hulk.
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Tyrannus 22 d
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2. Sure Hulk can technically die but he'll come back immediately which is nice
4. Hulk is child-like and even children realise anger won't always get them what they want.
6. The thing is heroes always try and find a way. If they can consistency spare villains lives surely trying to help their friend shouldn't have been that hard.
7. I believe it's because Hulk's one gets stronger while Wolverine's will stay the same
8. There was a bio on Spectre in the Injustice Gods Among Us mobile game? I had that app but I never knew. How to you find it?
9. Some of Thor's wins can be considered cheap or out of context too.
10. Thanos was always going to have better feats because he's the Avenger's main villain. Hulk needs to get angry to get strong. For that he usually needs to start losing first. I believe he was weakened on Sakaar. Every hero's been defeated many times over and beaten at their own game. Superman loses despite being the man who saves the day and Flash has been outraced or tied a few times.
12. In the heat of the fight you'd expect Thor to use his hammer or attack from the front. It was a smart move from Thor to attack from behind where no one would expect it.
14. I can't say for certain he's that Superman but I believe it's implied. Red Son Superman was my favourite version
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But acting like a character is unbeatable and claiming to know said character wins makes one sound like a fanboy. And I never said you were a fanboy, I said you sounded like one. Also you made some claims here that you might want to judge.
Thanks I'll check those comics out as for Thories (Thor stories) I'll recommend J Michael Straczynski's run on Thor which modernizes him while bringing him back after his "death" in Ragnorok, Thor (2011) by Matt Fraction alongside Journey Into Mystery by Kieron Gillen (which has Fear Itself in it) then go to Siege by the god himself Brian Michael Bendis then read God of Thunder by Jason Aaron. Then you're going to see a new era for Thor the Jason Aaron era starting with God of Thunder and still going to this day. Original Sin is the first step in Thor's fall from grace, then read the Jane Foster Thor arc alongside Unworthy Thor after that you have Thor At the Gates of Valhalla, Thor (2018) by Jason Aaron then you should be at War of the Realms where Thor currently is. If you want to see the true power of Thor then read Thor: World Engine by Stan Lee, Thor Lord of Asgard, Thor Lord of Earth, Thor the Reigning, Thor Ragnoroks (the comic), the classic Journey Into Mystery, etc.
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2: it also adds a new layer to him and makes him a bit more like Doomsday.
4: makes sense. You're also ignoring all the other times I've brought up Hulk reverting back into Banner.
6: the thing is that most of those villains are a LOT easier to contain than the Hulk is because those villains aren't going to get stronger while Hulk is as long as he gets angrier he'll get stronger.
7: yeah I kinda mentioned that.
8: scratch that. The character bio was from DC Universe Online, NOT Injustice: Gods Among Us. Sorry about that mistake, I had my list all screwed up. Wait, hold up how did we get here? Weren't we supposed to be talking about Thor and Hulk not the Spectre? Anyways I brought this point up because neither of these guys are stronger than the other just because of who they fight and how they do it.
9: yeah, I have to admit it.
10: I kinda agree but remember it takes time for Hulk to get angry and it'll take him a while to surpass Thanos unless he (Hulk) has something to make him angry like one of his allies dying to make him World Breaker. He only became weaker because of an obedience disk which wasn't on him at that point. The reason I brought up Hulk not being unbeatable is because you're kinda acting like he is. Fun fact: Superman almost beat Flash in a race before Flash took all his kinetic energy and beat him.
12: agreed
14: cool I liked Red Sun Superman too but my favorite has always been the New 52 Superman (I know that's an unpopular one).
Last edited: 12 d ago.
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Tyrannus 10 d
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I've never said Hulk is unbeatable and I actually gave Kitty Pryde as an example of someone who the Hulk would struggle to beat no matter how strong.
Thanks
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4. There are special ways to forcibly turn Hulk into Banner but usually it's when he calms down.
6. Why not try and find a cure for the Hulk or actually leave the Hulk alone. Doc Samson cured him once and Hulk doesn't really go rampaging unprovoked.
10. It really doesn't take that long for Hulk to get that strong. Because of his child-like mind hurting him in battle would anger him more that a normal person. I've never once said Hulk was unbeatable. It's usually for charity when Flash lets Superman come close otherwise he'd leave him in the dust.
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Are you paying attention? I said you were "acting" like he was unbeatable on those pages that I gave you.
You're welcome, I hope you enjoy those comics; in my humble opinion Thor is THE best hero to come out of Marvel and the thing is that he's not Marvel but actually a god from Norse Mythology.
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4: since when did a big explosion count as one of those ways? BTY I kinda want to add something here as in Heart of the Monster it was stated that Hulk never reached his full potential for infinite strength because Banner was suppressing him and when he went World Breaker he lost all control over the Hulk form which means there is no reason for Hulk to not be infinite at this point which is why I said World Breaker is the strongest Hulk can get. And Hulk also needs something to make him that angry to even get to World Breaker level because one incident can only make him so angry and Hulk is not a weapon like Doomsday rather an animal meaning he'll calm down eventually as all animals do which is another reason he's never shown infinite strength.
6: probably because most of those cures work as well as Arkham dose and the Illuminati despite having some of the smartest minds on earth didnt have access to any of those cures and he couldn't contain him long enough to cure him.
10: then why have so many other heroes kept up with him, locked arms with him, and even beat him? Again I never said you said he was unbeatable I said you were acting like he was on those pages.
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Then you've gotten the wrong impression.
Really? Thor's powerful but I've never found much to him. I believe Cyclops and the X-Men were the best thing to come from Marvel. They were more relatable and Cyclops was the greatest hero that ever lived
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4. Anger has no 100% capacity in that you never know hen you fully reach your max anger. You can always get angrier. Hulk was mostly achieving what he wanted so he didn't really have much reason to remain at the anger levels he was initially.
6. Why not reason with the Hulk or actually leave him alone. He's not a bad guy
10. I could also ask how is Captain Cold and the others even a Flash villain. It makes for better stories I suppose
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Uh, okay,
Yes, I do too love the X-men especially all new X-men which brought back and modernized Jean Grey (my second favorite character) and I've also found the X-men relatable.

4: oh, are you a being made out of rage? Because that's what the Hulk entity is. And I don't think Hulk wanted one of his allies to die at the end of WWH.
6: 1: how well dose that usually work out? 2: they stated that he was WAY to unpredictable to keep on Earth, even if they could leave him alone he also loves to fight and destroy things which makes him even more dangerous.
10: what dose that have to do with anything? And the reason they can keep up with the Flash is because A: Flash also holds back power B: they are metahumans with the speed to contend C: Flash usually defeats them all eventually.
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I actually really disliked Wolverine and his X-Men after X-Men Schism. They were very hypercritical while Cyclops always took they're insults and attacks without responding dispute being in the right.

4. Hulk's friends dying was towards the end of the comic
6. Professor X in the past has always reprimanded his X-Men whenever they attacked the Hulk, telling them Hulk just wants to be left alone and their friend Banner is still in there. Namor always had Hulk's back. Stark was one of Banner's closest friends. Just to name a few. Heroes always find a way. I feel as though they chose the easy option.
10. My point being in theory Hulk shouldn't be beaten or challenged the way he is just like how the Flash shouldn't have a problem with his foes but it makes for better stories if they struggle.
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Okay, I have a question: did you like Cyclops' adventures after AVX where they turned him into an anti hero?

4: which is what pushed him into World Breaker mode
6: not always but they usually do. Remember that Hulk was a bit to dangerous and he's even broken through classic Dr Strange's shields which mean even he couldn't restrain an angry Hulk for long and then what's stoping him from destroying something weather on purpose or accident? The point is the Illuminati has very little choice and did what they had to do.
10: but the thing is this isn't in theory it's based on the feats and lore that surround the characters. Sorry
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His adventures after AvX were him at his best I'd argue. He was never really an anti-hero though. What did he actually do wrong? Mutants were being born again despite the attacks from the Avengers and Wolverine, he accidentally killed Professor X in self-defence while possessed by the Phoenix (Jean Grey and Scarlet Witch had done so much worse yet they're still loved) and he went on to save new mutants from being arrested by racist police officers and Avengers. His mutant revolution was just a peaceful gathering outside the White House to show the world that mutants aren't dangerous.

6. Then they should prepare for those worst case scenarios. Thor, Silver Surfer and Rick Jones are reliable ways of controlling the Hulk. They could have worked with Banner himself given he's like the 4th smartest person in Marvel. It's different if Hulk was just some uncontrollable monster but he wasn't. He used to be their friend.
10. Feats can be misleading and you often get contracting evidence
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I agree, they really made Cyclops his own stand alone character without needing to be in Wolverine and Jean's shadows which is something long overdue because he was kind of pushed to the side in more modern comics. "What did he do wrong?" I don't know maybe prepare an entire generation for a war with humanity while acting as a sort of terrorist during some of his campaigns and becoming so messed up that Beast thought he should mess with time in order to get the classic X-men into the modern era so they could have a chat with him which failed miserably and gave us All New X-men. Jean Grey was not loved after the Phoenix Saga, there is a comic called "the Trial of Jean Grey" I'm which the all new Jean Grey is still hated for something a different version of her from a different timeline did decades ago. I can't really defeat Wanda after House of M and Excalibur. In the TPB Yesterday's X-men we see Cyclops claim that it wasn't him who killed Charles Xavier. And I don't remember his revolution not being dangerous; wasn't he preparing for was as shown in Yesterday's X-men?

6: uh, Thor died in Ragnorok and was left out of comics for over three years of IRL time or multiple universe changing events like Civil War, Avengers Disassemble, and House of M so Thor was off limits at the time. Silver Surfer rarely ever comes to Earth except for cosmic level events usually involving Galactus and Thanos so he was also off limits, Even Rick Jones can't keep Hulk at bay forever, Banner has spent decades of in universe time trying to do something about the Hulk and how well dose it usually work? The Hulk entity usually is an uncontrollable rage monster who can surpass magic and cosmic power, the only thing preventing him from destroying everything was Banner's limited control. Like I said they basically ran out of choices.
10: I know but that's what we are supposed to use in vs debates.
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Cyclops has always been his own thing. He never did say he wanted a war though. The word he kept using was a mutant revolution. He did say if you hurt innocents whether human or mutant he would come for you but that's as aggressive as it got. He never committed terrorist attacks. Even when the Avengers cornered his X-Men he just froze them and left. Beast jeopardising the timeline was his own fault not Cyclops. The young X-Men went on to leave Beast and joined Cyclops. Even when Jean was on trail the X-Men still had her back. They named the school after her.

6. Even so the smartest minds in Marvel didn't realise that the Hulk won't retaliate if you leave him alone. Sure there's a small chance Hulk might do devastating damage but the same can be said about Thor or Sentry or any OP character in Marvel.
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But he did say that Xavier wanted his mustangs to be warriors in one of the earlier issues of All New X-men. "He never committed any terrorist attacks" oh are you forgetting about when he broke into facilities To get the new mutants or how he took over s facility to make his new Xavier school? I also did like how aggressive that version of Cyclops was, it added a more edgy take on him. And I never said Beast jeopardizing the timeline was Scott's fault, now did I?

6: you're ignoring the fact that sometimes Hulk WANTS to fight and if he lets lose then...just read Heart of the Monster and see for yourself. And at least Thor and Sentry know when to hold back and are a lot more mindful of collateral damage than the Hulk ever was.

Here are some things I'd like to add to other points like here at Point 8: if we use the logic of Hulk being stronger than Thor because he fights alone then that would mean daredevil is > Darkseid because Darkseid uses amps like the ALE and help from other New Gods and his mindless army all the time. And I'd like to add to your " their enemies differ because of who they are" with this: same goes for what methods they use and what skills they bring, it doesn't mean either of them is stronger than the other. Point 10: making a better story is not an in universe answer for a character to show limits, you need an in universe one for vs debates. And Point 2 (I think): where you said "Hulk's healing factor will get stronger whereas Deadpool's will stay the same." While that is true Hulk's healing factor on its own also doesn't mean immortality because his can weaken if he calms down (which he's prone to doing) meaning it on it's own isn't what makes him basically immortal.

And this: "are you saying Thor is 100 times stronger than WBH?" No I was just using an analogy back on the Thor vs Hulk page. I never once said Thor was stronger than any Hulk yet alone WBH, heck WBH should literally be infinitely stronger than Thor.
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Cyclops only ever wanted his younger students to be ready if the fight ever came their way. Wolverine twisted that into thinking he was OK with child soldiers. He used the old weapon X facility as his new Xavier school. The only time he broke the law was when he recused mutant children who were unfairly arrested and weren't going to get a trail because they were mutants. He was still a good guy he just wasn't going to be Mr boy scout anymore because it wasn't working.

6. I've never known Hulk to just fight for no reason. Throughout the years Hulk is usually the one attacked and he usually runs away as soon as he gets an opening. If Hulk ever did cause trouble then they should just deal with it. Banishing Hulk off the planet was a very extreme decision.

I never said being alone means your stronger. What I meant was that in a lot of the cases it's usually Hulk vs Thor and the Avengers or some other help. Thor usually has help while Hulk doesn't. It's a testament to Hulk's strength that he's able to hold off the Avengers often by himself. The Immortal Hulk comics explain better how Hulk was immortal all along.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 1 mo 12 d
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Do you actually think I'm the worst debater and that I don't read comics?
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Tyrannus 1 mo 3 d
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No. What made you think that?
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Because on the Thor v Hulk page you said "I've read all those comics I'm not sure why you don't." BTY I'm actually reviewing all the Thor vs Hulk fights because that video missed a few and ignored the context for some of the other fights. And the reason I said "Thor doesn't even need Mjolnir to beat Hulk" is because if he didn't have it Hulk won't be able to blindside him with it and Thor can still use thunder without it.
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Tyrannus 30 d
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I didn't mean you don't read comics at all. We've already seen what Thor's like without Mjolner when Jane Foster had it. Thor wasn't useless but he wasn't all that impressive either
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"I didn't mean you don't read comics at all."

Then what did you mean? And without Mjolnir Thor should still have the same strength, speed, intelligence, skill, durability, etc as he did when he had it.
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Tyrannus 28 d
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Mjolnir makes a big difference given that it's one of the most powerful weapons in comics.
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Correction: mightiest weapon of the Norse Gods. And no Thor and Hulk are shown to be equals in Defenders #10 1973 Mjolnir only amps Thor's striking power because it's a hammer and Thor's a pretty strong guy but here Thor arm wrestles Hulk to a standstill (and doesn't Hulk look tired after that and despite arm wrestling for over an hour his "always getting stronger" facility didn't save him) and in Journey Into Mystery Thor is stated to be faster and more skilled than the Hulk and they basically battle to a standstill before Mjolnir comes back to Thor and Thor basically forfeits and they go there separate ways. Remember classic Thor was dependent on Mjolnir for his power while modern Thor is not nearly as dependent on Mjolnir as classic Thor. Keep that in mind my friend. But their you have it why I said "Thor didn't need Mjolnir to beat Hulk if he didn't hold back"
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Tyrannus 22 d
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I didn't say Mjolnir was THE greatest weapons but it's up there. Hulk doesn't look like he's getting too angry though. Hulk was gaining the upper hand in that battle which actually proves Hulk would win if Thor didn't have Mjolnir.
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Ignore this, I have had a slight change of opinion on the Thor vs Hulk matchup altogether. I used to think it was like Batman vs Superman where Superman could effortlessly one shot Batman but he won't because of his morals, same goes for Thor and Hulk. But now I see it like: Thor could easily decimate Hulk with a GodBlast but wouldn't because he enjoys fighting as all Asgardians do (which is another reason for him holding back) but Hulk can use this against Thor like he did in Hulk: Let the Battle Begin where Thor is clearly shown to be the more powerful of the two and beats Hulk into submission but instead of finishing it he starts bragging which makes Hulk angrier and then he overpowers Thor by hitting him with his own hammer. The Hulk entity also takes the time to enjoy fights rather than punching say Abomination into space or something like that and that's why he'll also let Thor land thunderstrikes on him, Hulk also doesn't know how devastating Thor's lightning can be which is why he didn't try to dodge them in either Fear Itself or Hulk 2001. I could write an entire essay on this but right now I'm going to make a rebuttal despite now seeing things in Hulk's favor, and here it is: 1: you said it's one of the strongest in comics 2: I didn't really notice that though I'll add it to my analysis of the Hulk vs Thor fights 3: that was because Thor at that point was a gentle lame doctor called Donald Blake without Mjolnir and in Journey Into Mystery by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby Odin gave Thor five minutes to test his power against Hulk without weapons and he fought evenly with him until the fight was broken up with no clear winner. Remember the modern Thor doesn't have the same Donald Blake gimmick which means that based on this feat he should at least fight him to a stalemate. Though I do agree that in the end Hulk would beat a hammerless Thor with very high difficulty morals on and mid to low difficulty if both were bloodlusted (which means the Hulk entity won't be taking the time to enjoy a fight with the God of Thunder). Let me know what you think about this.
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In Hulk: Let the Battle Begin Thor was stronger at first but as expected Hulk only gets stronger and overcame Thor. Thor didn't really brag much. Before the fight turned around Thor asked Hulk to give up. With most of Hulk's enemies, they start the fight with him rather than Hulk starting it.

When Thor fought without Mjolnir he wasn't really fighting evenly, Hulk was gaining the upper hand. Hulk left after seeing Mjolnir because he knew it would make a massive difference.

I'd argue that apart from nigh-omnipotent weapons like the Infinity Gauntlet or a white lantern ring, Mjolnir (or even better Stormbreaker) is one of the best weapons you can have.
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"Thor wasn't really bragging that much" oh, did you miss the part where Thor literally called himself "the better man?" Also Hulk merely caught him by surprise.

I'm referring to Journey Into Mystery because that's when Thor was offered a chance by Odin to fight with Hulk bare handed.

I'd agree because of it's versatility but why is Stormbreaker (I'm assuming you're referring to Beta Ray Bill's hammer and not Thor's axe in Infinity War and Endgame) better than Mjolnir?
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"Hulk merely caught him by surprise". Thor was facing Hulk when he asked him to yield with Hulk on his knees. Thor should have seen this coming.
I know. That's what I meant too.
It's always been the hammer that Thor wants. Stormbreaker's user and shape is better than Mjolnier's too I'd say
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Unfortunately he didn't because of what us vs debaters like to call "writer introduced stupidity" (when an ignorant writer introduces something that is very inconsistent with the characters examples of this are 1: Captain America defeating the Hulk 2: Batman being able to fight evenly with the Flash, 3: Thor being able to injure beings like the Phoenix Force and Chaos King, etc)
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I don't think that was poor writing. Thor made Hulk angry so he overcame Thor which Thor didn't see.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 3 d
Tyrannus
Do you prefer Clone Wars Project Multi Media or the TCW show and why?
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Tyrannus
Tyrannus 3 mo 2 d
Tyrannus
What's the CWPMM?
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 1 d
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This https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Clone_Wars_multimedia_project
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 3 mo 1 d
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They look like the same thing
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 1 d
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They're not. Here's a video of someone talking about it and how TCW doesn't fit in legends https://youtu.be/n8a0gaa0olU
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 18 d
Tyrannus
https://youtu.be/Hl2K78KJA3I
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Tyrannus
Tyrannus 3 mo 17 d
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Why?
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 16 d
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Why not?
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 3 mo 19 d
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https://www.superherodb.com/black-racer-vs-black-flash/90-124504/#
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 21 d
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Why do you hate Dark Empire?
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Tyrannus
Tyrannus 3 mo 21 d
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Who said I hate DE?
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 20 d
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You said you hated it here https://www.superherodb.com/forum/the-star-wars-questionnaire/100-3766/
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Tyrannus 3 mo 20 d
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I didn't think it was a good story. Sidious was portrayed quite weak at times and inconstant, Luke was supposed to be the perfect jedi who always resisted the dark side but he joins Sidious and Sidious even coming back ruined Vader's character arc as the chosen one bringing balance to the force. With that said I don't hate it, it just undermined ROTJ
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Dark_Wing 3 mo 19 d
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What do you mean "Palpatine was weak in DE?" He threw planet sized storms with The Force, slaughtered an entire rebel fleet with hid Force powers, and defeated the great Luke Skywalker amped by Leia's Force Harmony in order to beat him (and even then all they did was kill one of his clones), and it took the sacrifice of one of the most powerful Jedi's spirits to contain him permanently. Luke was never the perfect Jedi, that's one I hate about Star Wars fans they completely disgrace the characters, viewing Darth Vader as nexus of evil when he's actually a tragic tortured hero, viewing Luke as the perfect Jedi Messiah when he was very obviously tempted by the Dark Side on several occasions. Heck if you think that Dark Empire ruined Luke then watch The Last Jedi https://youtu.be/Td4AQZMTkTQ. Luke is relatively young at that point and made the arrogant decision to think that he could resist the Dark Side's influence, and failed miserably. When I first read the comic I thought Anakin's arc ruined but it wasn't, Anakin throwing down the Emperor was about the choice he made to chose his son over the Dark Side and because of that he brought balance to the Force (for a time).
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Tyrannus 3 mo 19 d
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His body couldn't last without rotting away, he get shot in the back and what makes him so strong is what makes him so weak. I personally think Obi-Wan was the perfect jedi but Luke was supposed to be what Anakin would have been had he not turned. I agree, Vader wasn't pure evil, he had good reasons for turning because he genuinely believed that it was for the greater good. TLJ is awful. I hated TFA too but TLJ surpassed that in ruining star wars. The thing is Anakin was supposed to be the one to destroy the sith but in the end it was Luke and his friends. What was the point of the prophecy.
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Dark_Wing 3 mo 18 d
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"He couldn't last without his body was rotting away" that's called Dark Side degradation, nearly all Sith suffer from that. 0He got shot in the head so what makes him so powerful also makes him weaker" he was focusing all his efforts into possessing Anakin Solo and would've been able to block that blaster shot if he noticed it before he was shot, and even then it took The spirit of every deceased Jedi just to keep him in the realm of chaos. Luke was what Anakin would of been, much like Anakin he thought he could fake turning to the Dark Side and back stab Palpatine after learning what he needed. In my opinion Yoda is the perfect Jedi not Obi-Wan. Why do you hate TFA? I thought it was a decent movie all though I would of rather see the NJO or something similar. Anakin destroy the Sith, Palpatine actually died and his spirit had to possess a clone then he has to spent 10 years in higher than before he could rise again. Correction Luke, hid sister and The spirit of every deceased Jedi what were officially defeated Palpatine.
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Tyrannus 3 mo 18 d
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Why didn't he just kill everyone (except the baby) then possess Anakin Solo? It wasn't really much effort to contain his spirit. Anakin willingly gave in to the dark side. Palpatine was his friend, his intentions to betray him came after Padme died. Good point about Yoda but I feel like Obi-Wan was tested more and always resisted the dark side while keeping true to the jedi ways. We see more of Obi-Wan than Yoda. TFA was a copy paste of ANH but worse. You know what I meant. As long as Palpatine was alive, the sith lived on which undermined Anakin's decision. Also how did your reply split separately from the others?
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Dark_Wing 3 mo 18 d
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I'm not sure about why he didn't do that. What do you mean it didn't take much effort to contain his spirt? It took EVERY SINGLE DECEASED JEDI TO CONTAIN HIS SPIRIT. Of course Obi-Wan was tested more because he was on the front lines a lot more than Yoda was, Yoda also has been tested by the Dark Side https://youtu.be/sWComeA6_nU. TFA isn't a copy and paste ANH sure it borrows elements from ANH but they change enough stuff about it that I don't think it should be called "copy and paste ANH." "How did your reply is separate from the others" the Dark Side of The Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.I'm not sure about why he didn't do that. What do you mean it didn't take much effort to contain his spirt? It took EVERY SINGLE DECEASED JEDI TO CONTAIN HIS SPIRIT. Of course Obi-Wan was tested more because he was on the front lines a lot more than Yoda was, Yoda also has been tested by the Dark Side https://youtu.be/sWComeA6_nU. TFA isn't a copy and paste ANH sure it borrows elements from ANH but they change enough stuff about it that I don't think it should be called "copy and paste ANH." "How did your reply is separate from the others" the Dark Side of The Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
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Tyrannus 3 mo 18 d
Tyrannus
The dead jedi weren't exactly doing anything. I suppose that's why Yoda's the Grand Master but Obi-Wan went through so much more hardship. I have no doubt Yoda would have done the same too though. Giving the plans to a droid then running away from a masked villain and his soldiers to the good guys casually flying in and destroying a death star. When I watched TFA I realised it mid-way and it became so predicable after that. The First Order is a joke, they never put up a challenge. You doubled your answer twice over
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 17 d
Tyrannus
"The dead Jedi weren't exactly doing anything" then why were they needed to contain Palpatine's spirit? Obi-Wan went through more hardship during the Clone Wars but in general Yoda was over 800 years old so I assume he went through more stuff in his life, I agree there. That and a few other call backs are the only copy and paste stuff from ANH. The First Order isn't as much of a joke as the Empire what is portrayed in Rebels.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 3 mo 17 d
Tyrannus
They came to help because they were needed but nothing was lost by them all holding Sidious. There was never any doubt that the good guys were in any trouble. Rey with no training beats Anakin Skywalker's experienced grandson, the Resistance effortlessly destroys an even bigger death star. There's no struggle. The empire in Rebels was useless as well. In TCW battle droids could kill jedi but a stormtrooper can't shoot an unarmed rebel at point blank?
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 16 d
Tyrannus
I agree with those first two points. That's because Kylo Ren was CONFLICTED and HOLDING BACK that's how Luke beat Vader and no one calls Luke a Mary Sue. In ANH the rebels also had a somewhat easy time destroying the Death Star. Battle droids weren't consistently able to kill Jedi and more times than not they lost. In the Original Trilogy the stormtroopers were ordered to hold back against Luke and Han.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 3 mo 14 d
Tyrannus
Why was he holding back? If he wanted her alive all he needed to do was force pull the lightsaber from her. She had to training. Suddenly she can beat an expert. Luke spent some time training with Yoda and he still rightfully lost in ESB. The rebels knew about a weakness in the death star and Vader was killing them off 1 by 1 anyway until Han saved them. In the right scenario battle droids could kill jedi. There was no plot armour. I meant the troopers in Rebels.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 9 d
Tyrannus
He was conflicted because he just killed his father. When he fought Finn, he was obviously just toying with him until Ren decided to punch him then slice them across the back. When Ren Who is already injured and conflicted (because he just told his father) failed to pull lightsaber it instead went to Rey, this surprised and he decided to engage her in a duel, Kylo was destroying her that entire fight and could've just pushed her into that trench but instead he wanted her to come with him that's why he said "you need a teacher I can show you the ways of The Force" then she used The Force and caught him off guard then pummeled him before he could do anything. In my opinion the reason he engage her in a saber fight instead of just force pushing her is probably because A: he's a big fan of Darth Vader who loves to engage hordes of Jedi in saber combat _Star Wars: Purge, I don't think it's too out there to think that Kylo was trying to be like Vader or B: he simply didn't think to force push her or C: The Force simply didn't allow Ren to do that. In ANH Luke what is guided by the ghost of Obi-Wan this is especially shown in Splinter of The Mind's Eye where Luke guided by Kenobi's ghost was able to beat a suppressed Vader. I don't consider that much of a feat to because Luke's raw potential coupled with Kenobi's experience and skill should allow him to accomplish similar feats to what GM Luke was capable of and Vader was heavily suppressed and caught off guard. In the canon Star Wars comic which takes place before ESB, Luke is consistently getting his butt kicked by stormtroopers and bounty hunters who don't have The Force and even after a briefs training session with Yoda (The greatest Jedi of all time) he still only held his own against Vader for as long as he did because Vader was toying with him, he wasn't even trying and he still won with relative ease. I do agree the troops in Rebels are a joke.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 3 mo 6 d
Tyrannus
It still doesn't quite explain how Rey seems to always beat everyone without any training. Even Anakin and Luke suffered defeats with years of training.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 5 d
Tyrannus
Kylo wasn't even trying to hurt Rey and even if he was Rey at that point had literally absorbed all of Ben's training _TLJ novel and have been fighting with the staff her whole life. In the other hand Anakin blew up a trade federation ship when he was nine and won the pod race something that no other human could do, Luke with no training what so ever killed elite stormtrooper and destroyed the Death Star all in one day. And when he finally got brief training from Yoda, he held his own against Vader for five minutes and in RotJ he beat Vader "Vader was surprised with Luke's equal strength to his own" _RotJ novel in case you didn't know Darth Vader is supposed to be one of the greatest Sith in galactic history. That's why I said "no one called Luke a Mary Sue." I was obviously viewing this as how a casual moviegoer would see it ignoring most of the lore.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 3 mo 5 d
Tyrannus
I meant in TFA although just absorbing Kylo's knowledge seems like lazy writing. Why do jedi and sith spend years training if they can just copy paste the knowledge from someone else. Anakin had the highest medichlorian count ever and was a natural pilot like Luke. Vader was playing with Luke.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 3 mo 5 d
Tyrannus
Also what made Anakin and Luke such naturals at flying and fighting was their force potential which is something Kylo possesses. Rey doesn't
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 1 d
Tyrannus
"Why can't force users just copy and paste each other's knowledge" one explanation is they didn't know that they could do that, remember Snoke is the one who contacted them through the Force and probably knows much more about The Force than say Palpatine or Yoda. Another explanation is that what if that ability was dangerous and Rey was just lucky or something like that? Another explanation I have is that she's a wound in The Force https://youtu.be/qEyq7AiirdQ. Now to the next point, Rey has only shown piloting skills once, that was in TFA when she piloted the falcon, and that was because she's been working on that ship you know doing repairs etc so she should know how to fly it. While on the topic of piloting please notice that Anakin blew up a Trade Federation ship when he was nine years old, Luke blew up a Death Star after first getting into an X-Wing and Rey crashed the Falcon a total of six times during that sequence. Also I want to add one more thing, I don't think it's really fair to compare Rey to Anakin and Luke because both Anakin and Luke have complete trilogies while Rey only has two movies. One more point i'd like to make is that if you at it look at out of context then Luke overpowered one of the greatest Sith Lords in galactic history and resisted the temptation of THE greatest Sith Lord both in canon and legends literally seconds after overpowering Vader, while all Rey did was smack a child with a laser sword them get thrown around by an old dude in a bath robe.
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Tyrannus
Tyrannus 4 mo 2 d
Tyrannus
100% agree with that video. Wish Lucas never sold star wars
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 4 mo 2 d
Tyrannus
I actually think this new stuff is kind of cool, while the EU felt like an overpowered parody the new stories actually feel like Star Wars (for the most part)
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 4 mo 3 d
Tyrannus
Did you vote on Red Robin vs Huntress, Batgirl and Robin III vs Robin V?
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Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 4 mo 3 d
Tyrannus
Yes I did
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 4 mo 4 d
Tyrannus
In your opinion, how power is Luke in RotJ?
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Tyrannus
Tyrannus 4 mo 4 d
Tyrannus
I'd say he's average by ROTJ. He has the potential but didn't have the experience.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 4 mo 4 d
Tyrannus
Red Robin is basically like Batman but with less experience.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 4 mo 3 d
Tyrannus
Agreed, my opinion Luke is extremely powerful especially when you take into consideration how little training he had, but there is no way he could beat Mace Windu, Revan, Starkiller, Yoda, Palpatine, or any higher tier Force user. At least not before Dark Empire.

"Red Robin is basically Batman with less experience"

Nightwing: am I a joke to you?
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 4 mo 3 d
Tyrannus
I'd say Luke at that point was more on Ahsoka's level. Ahsoka also got a few good hits on Vader while being distracted and that was a Vader that wasn't holding back.

Nightwing is one of the best fighters and should surpass Batman eventually but he's too different. Nightwing is lighter than Batman while Red Hood is a darker version. Red Robin is in the middle and the best successor to Batman.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 4 mo 3 d
Tyrannus
I'd say he's on a comparable level to Asajj Ventress as both could hold their own against the masters of their eras and were also stated to be prodigies.

Cassie Cain (don't know much about her so don't ask) > Batman > Nightwing > Tim Drake. Batman has consistently shown to be better than Nightwing, Tim, and Damien in almost every category.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 4 mo 3 d
Tyrannus
Agreed but I believe Tim will eventually surpass them all except maybe Orphan.
Batman once got every member of the bat family and made them fight tournament style in groups and in free for all. Tim Drake actually came first, Red Hood came second.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 4 mo 3 d
Tyrannus
Cassie and adult Damien would stomp Tim. And When did that happen?
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 4 mo 2 d
Tyrannus
We don't know how Damian would be when he's older. Batman's already said Tim's the best strategist and the most disciplined in Batman Hush.

I can't remember the comic but I was reminded of it when I saw this picture www.google.com/search?q=tim+drake+facts&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB747GB747&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirl_HFjqLiAhW6TxUIHVOfCU8Q_AUIDigB&biw=1536&bih=754#imgdii=tpcbG6CblyabMM:&imgrc=-snq3e4qqr9VgM:
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 3 mo 19 d
Tyrannus
I'm not sure how trustworthy those facts are.
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Tyrannus
Tyrannus 4 mo 10 d
Tyrannus
Your profile picture shows Jean Grey Pheonix force. ROTS is definitely my favourite.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 4 mo 6 d
Tyrannus
I was just wondering how do you get notified when someone has messaged or replied to you? The only way I find out is by checking my replies but I can't remember them all.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 4 mo 5 d
Tyrannus
All those links have merged into one. I don't think this site has a notification box.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 4 mo 5 d
Tyrannus
I don't know how you get notified. You might want to put a period after each link you copy and paste to separate them, or just post each link in it's own individual comment.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 4 mo 4 d
Tyrannus
I'm afraid that Red Robin looses all of those.
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 4 mo 13 d
Tyrannus
Hey Tyrannus, want to be friends?
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Tyrannus
Tyrannus 4 mo 12 d
Tyrannus
Sure. You seem like a pretty cool guy and I've noticed we comment on similar battles
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 4 mo 11 d
Tyrannus
Yeah, I'm a Star Wars fan too.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 4 mo 10 d
Tyrannus
Me too. We seem to like similar stuff. I'm guessing your a fan of the pheonix force.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 4 mo 10 d
Tyrannus
What's your favourite Star Wars movie?
Dark_Wing
Dark_Wing 4 mo 10 d
Tyrannus
What makes you think I'm a fan of the Phoenix Force?

Fave Star Wars movie, either Empire Strikes Back or Revenge of the Sith. Yours?