Tag Team Debate Tournament #2

No, apparently no one else wants to join

Well, we would one more person after that.

We are having a tournament where you team up with another person and debate with them. Read the official rules, and you get to pick a street-level hero, maybe mid-level. Iron Man is an okay mid-level if he is at Bleeding Edge or lower, Absorbing Man or Big Barda is too high. You can be Deathstroke :D

Yeah, we would only need one, but Spidey wants to be Absorbing Man who is a higher tier, so he can't join unless he changes his mind.

So far, only 5. You, me, AkhilPDX, NemianLion, and MOP.

Chill, but one, Namor is not as strong as Martian Manhunter, otherwise, he wouldn't be here. And Spidey is stronger than 25 tons.

Oh yeah, I forgot Mr. Fantastic, Star-Lord, Red She-Hulk, Mera, Midnighter. You can also choose horror characters like Jason Voorhees, Freddy Krueger, etc, or Star Wars STREET level characters like Boba Fett, Kylo Ren, or Darth Maul, or other characters that fit the description like Kat.

I guess we are a joint operation now, lol. It's cool though because 2 people are better than 1, anyway, I'd like to reserve Colossus as my character, I was gonna pick him anyway, but I didn't want to join in the tournament unless I have too, so that I can solely focus on judging the debates, but I got dibs on Colossus.

Wow, wow, wow @AkhilPDX, Blue Marvel is WAY too powerful to be in this tournament, he defeated Hyperion who solos 99% of the people here, he should be off limits.

WTF?!? Blue Marvel, I think I meant to write someone else. Oh god.

Oh yeah, I meant to write Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes) - the one that isn't FULLY on Lantern level, the one on like Spidey's level.

I have no problem with that, but @AkhilPDX has to agree also to have you as his partner. Otherwise it's random, but I let people choose their partner last time, so I don't see why this time should be any different.

Black Panther and Spiderman does sound like a cool duo IMO.

Sure, but I have two conditions.
1) Don't abandon me (very easy :D)
2) Please read up on the debating rules. We want to win, right? ;)

Sure man. Thx

Actually can I change to Iron man. If not I'll stick to black panther.

Yeah that's fine.

Thx

Yes! A Spider-Man / Iron Man duo! Perfect. Iron Man is a bit more on the Mid-Tier, but so is Spider-Man and Hawkman, so not too bad. However, you can't be Hulkbuster, Endo-Sym, Model Prime, Thor-Buster or anything on that side, but we can give you the Bleeding Edge (It is a MID tier, but no character will be at that much of a disadvantage - however, @soulcollecter34 has to agree with this armor. Also, because of this, any character that's more mid-tier than street-level with team up with a weaker hero to make it fairer.

I don't pay attention to the different armors, but I'm fine with his basic, standard, vanilla armor he using on a consistent bases, basically his go to armor that has him on tear with the others in this tournament.

Yeah I can work with bleeding edge armour.

I was going to make it Model Prime, but that's too much, I guess you can call in the Iron Legion if it is just standard weaker suits.

@Marvel500, you'd BETTER be online. I don't want to debate EVERYTHING by myself ;) I mean, yeah, Bleeding Edge is like, mid-level, and it's a bit high, but I want a partner, not a strong character, so PLEASE be online throughout the contest.

Yeah I'm online has the debate finally started.

With Nemian, that makes 4. Just need 4 more.

Cool, but no Claw of Horus. That hits with the force of a planet which is the HIGHEST of mid-levelers.

@Marvel500, yes of course.

So how does this work do I choose a mid tier hero.

If it is street level I choose black panther.

You're still on about that? You violated the one day rule, and forced a delay of debate, that is a rule of any debate, and you broke it. The only characters on that list that are acceptable are Colossus and Namor, and I already have Colossus, so I'll have you down for Namor. As for @Nemian that's up to him, if he wants to be your partner, then you can be, but I can't force him onto a team he doesn't want. So if he agrees to it, I'm fine with it.

Is there an option to not have a partner?

No, otherwise it would be a handicap and regardless of how good someone might be at debating, everyone gets a partner, it's mandatory. And out of all the characters in the player pool, not and those already selected, can any of them solo a group of two, unless it's Quicksilver vs Hawkeye and Black Widow or something, but lets be honest, no one is going to choose either of those characters and if they did, there is a 1/8 chance that they end up on the same team anyway. This may be an over explanation, but to sum it up, no you must have a partner, doesn't matter how good you are at debating, you get a partner.

Well, I could just pick two characters, but okay

As much as I'd hate to admit it, Nemian, Spidey, and Soul are the best debaters, so all three of you are getting shipped out to different teams, period. :D

Sure, you can have Darth Vader or Namor!

@Prodigy, I have responded to it, just letting you know.

They probably won't change, and even if they do, Absorbing Man is not street-level.

How so?

He could hold off the entire Avengers and hold up to Thor.

Well you obviously don't understand how the Absorbing Man's powers work

Yeah, he absorbs and adapts, meaning he could beat anyone here.

Well, he would just be the equal to everyone here, so...

He still went up against Thor and held his own against all of the Avengers, meaning he could adapt to anyone here and defeat them.

You literally just said that he held up against them, not that he defeated them...

Holding up to the entire Avengers and being able to match and defeat beings like Thor and Hulk several times is enough to place him at mid-high tier. These characters are outmatched.

Oh, so now he defeated Thor. Lol, get your s**t out of here

Matching someone means you could beat them. Spider-Man matched Wolverine, and he'd beat him. Just because Thor can beat Absorbing Man doesn't mean AM doesn't have a chance. Either way, I'm not trying to argue with you. You simply can't be someone above street-level, and for you to be ANYONE, you have to accept the rules.

• Definition of 'Match': "A person or thing able to contend with another as an equal in quality or strength."

• Definition of 'Beat': "Defeat someone in a game, competition, election, or commercial venture."

You can't beat someone if you are equal to them. That takes simple logic to comprehend

Lol, you can beat someone after a good fight, meaning, you are close or equal in power. You might have the advantage in something else though.

You can't beat someone if you are equal to them. That takes simple logic to comprehend

Yes, you can, if you are smarter or the better fighter. Anyways, I never said Absorbing Man was completely equal, I said he could match Thor and he can beat people on the level of Thor.

Then you wouldn't be their equal. Definition of 'Match': "A person or thing able to contend with another as an equal in quality or strength." How can he be the equal to Thor, but beat beings who are equal to Thor. Just sounds like poor power scaling to me

They can still be closely related in terms of power.

Well, duh. The Absorbing Man was kind of the equal to Thor

Just confirming that I get the Absorbing Man...

If you can prove, that despite consistently holding his own against Hulk and Thor, that he can be considered around the level of someone like Captain America or Spiderman or than yes.

Do you understand how his powers work?

Yes, I do, I know what his powers are, it doesn't matter how someone's power work, it matters how powerful they are. Wonder Woman's only actual powers a super strength, speed, durability, and flight, everyone understands those powers, but just because they understand how they work, she would be excluded from the tournament because of how powerful she is with them. Doesn't matter what someone's powers are or how they work, all that matters is their actual power.

Okay? Well, the Absorbing Man is only as powerful as the beings around him, so obviously you don't understand how his powers work

Also, are you going to change the rules?

No, the rules are staying, you can give out a comic book for extra evidence, but scans are necessary, and no, extra evidence gains the same number of points.

First off, I never asked you, so f**k off. Secondly, we have already gone over this and you never gave a valid reason as to why I can't use comic books as evidence (I sound so ridiculous saying that).

Prove that, prove that it's fluctuates depending on who he facing, give valuable evidence of it, and I'll allow him as an option.

Well yeah, but he still needs to give out scans, and you WILL accept scans. You can't ask for the comic number because it isn't required, and if you can't accept it, you don't need to join. @soulcollecter34 is right, you can give as much evidence as you want, extra numbers and all that, but still going to only gain the same number of points.

I don't understand that statement. You are basically asking me to prove how his powers work. I mean, if you want examples of the Absorbing Man absorbing different things and his powers fluctuating due to what he is absorbing, I can do that, but it only takes a small amount of knowledge on the Absorbing Man to know that his powers fluctuate depending on the things he is around. So, if you really want evidence, here it is. In 'Journey Into Mystery Volume 1 #115, Page #8, Panel #2', the Absorbing Man's powers are finally revealed. His power is "...to absorb the strength of anything nearby, just as he has now absorbed the strength and appearance of the very rocks on which he stands." This is evidence of the fact that the Absorbing Man only absorbs the things he is around (also known as the beings he is around). As for evidence that his powers fluctuate depending on who he is around, on the very same page as the one previously mentioned, on Panel #6, after changing from stone into absorbing the strength and power of Thor, the Absorbing Man sates, "I can absorb the power of anyone I'm near, anyone I'm fighting. That means I'm now just as strong as you are, Thunder God. In fact, maybe even more so." I think that is all the evidence needed.

No, that isn't, because #1 - Whichever comic Absorbing Man is in, he always goes toe to toe with heavy hitters. He's fought Thor and Hulk and easily traded blows with them. He is above street-level, period.

Absorbing Man only gets stronger from absorbing things, but his base power is above most everyone in this tournament, especially current day Absorbing Man who is equal or very close to Hulk in terms of power in his base, as shown in The Immortal Hulk issue #9, and his absorbing powers only amplify him greatly. Even back in the early days of Marvel, he has had many showing of clashing with beings such as Thor and Hulk, and modern day Absorbing Man is far superior being able to contend with the strongest cannon form of Hulk, that being the Immortal Hulk. He is far to powerful for this tournament, no one stands a chance in a one on one, hell, he could even solo certain groups of these heroes without any absorbed materials.

It's as if I am speaking to a brick wall...

Too bad, the answer is no.

No one asked you. Shut the f**k up

Don't care, the answer is NO to Absorbing Man. Soul has to start this at some point, and we decline.

You act as if your opinion matters...

Too bad, he's a bit too high.

Magneto, Loki, Lobo, Swamp Thing, and Solomon Grundy (generally) ALL high tier. Mister Sinister and Grodd are usually street-levelers.

ANDREASVER I WILL DDOS YOU IF YOU DONT STOP

Stop making troll team battles. Get off this site or don't be troll.

I was thinking the same thing

Debunking is exposing it's not true, rebutting is arguing that it's not true... So yeah, more or less the same thing

What I mean by a rebuttal, is a debunk of the debunk. I didn't feel like typing debunk of a debunk, so I used the word rebuttal instead, as rebuttals are often responses to someone trying to disprove something. If you have a claim, and someone trys to debunk it, you can refute their debunk by debunking it, or in other words further defending your claim. And since debunking a debunk is still just a debunk, so I had them scored the same amount of points.

Which rule do you think is bad?

If you think it is the scan, I HEAVILY disagree. Usually, people don't have the time to read an entire comic when they get it, especially in a debate which has a time limit. Scans are easier and usually, people are nice enough to give out context. Plus, you can easily tell if anything is PIS or WIS from scans without wasting too much time.

I don't like the 1 day response time limit and I don't like the out of context scan bulls**t. If you can't provide the comic, you haven't read it, meaning you don't rate to talk about the subject. And nice try, but I give the comic series name, issue number, page number, AND panel number. So, reading the entire comic my a**

I agree people are sometimes just busy and can't respond for a day

Well, the entire debate lasts 3 days and if you can't respond within a day, you are wasting the time of the other team so that's why that rule exists. As for the scans, not every comic can be found with one feat. Also, a scan is better than all of that where you have to scroll down. Once more, you don't need to read every single comic with a feat of your hero, that is unnecessary, and even if you get some feats from a respect thread, that is OKAY. Lastly, you CAN provide a comic number and all that, but you need to provide a scan along with that. Otherwise, a scan is the only thing that is actually necessary to get a point. If you decline it and fail to debunk it, the other team gets an easy win. Nothing you can do about the rules at this point. They are good and most people would rather have scans than issues.

@DarkProdigy I understand that too and that's fine, but if you keep taking too much time, you shouldn't even join in the first place. If you do, you'd be letting your partner down and you'd be wasting the time of the other team, so if you can't reply in 1 day, once or twice, it is okay, but more than four or five times is a concern. If you don't reply in time, the other team wins. Simple. No matter how good of a debater you are, the other team will win. It is that simple. Right? I mean, this isn't to prove who is the best at debating. This is for fun.

Then extend the debate to 7 days. "Not every comic can be found with one feat." I don't understand this statement. Oh my, god forbid you have to scroll down! Lol, get that s**t out of here. Don't try and justify your obvious lack of comic book knowledge by trying to explain how scans are better than the comics, of which the scans come from. All scans are out of context and unreliable. I will not participate in something that allows lack of context to be accepted as evidence. That would just be flat out ridiculous to participate in. When I want evidence, I want to know all the in and outs of the feat they are referencing so that I know it is legitimate

Exactly, if scans are involved in the majority of someone's evidence I think they should be banned from debating

Scans are the easiest and best form of evidence to post.

Just it being easy, proves it is not a reliable form of evidence

I'll extend the debate to 5 days, and give everyone a 3 day response period. I never said you couldn't give the comic issue also, all I said is that a scan is neccessary. I tried explaining this to you earlier but you didn't understand what I meant. If giving the comic book issue is your biggest problem with the rule, and you don't like out of context scans, then give the comic book it is from, and then the scan from that comic you are trying to use, it's that easy. Give the scan and the comic, that way, it makes it easier to find, and if they claim it's out of context , they can go read that comic themselves, it's that simple, and everyone gets what they want. If you think not reading an entire comic is lazy, then you should have no problem taking a screen shot of the comic. Not to mention, finding the comics on that readcomicsonline site is difficult because they don't have EVERY single comic book ever, and if it's not on the website, then you have to go out and buy the comic, and I doubt anyone is gonna spend money on a comic book only to read it one time, for a small debate on a website. Because the argument can be made that it's just a random comic book, that has nothing to do with the feat you are trying to convey, so if it's that big of a deal, give the comic book issue, and then the scan from that comic book that holds what you're trying to find, so if, like I said, they think it's out of context they can go and read the comic themselves, it's that simple, and everyone gets what they want.

Exactly @soulcollecter34! That is super easy and you've explained it perfectly. If someone can't understand that, they are a numbnut.

@Soulcollector57: Umm, no. I am not going to risk the structural integrity of my comments just to appease your ridiculous request to use out of context scans. I don't just request that I have to use comic books as evidence, I propose that EVERYONE has to use comic books as evidence, just to prove that they know what they are talking about. And what a ridiculous statement. If it isn't on the readcomicsonline website, I wouldn't be referencing it in the first place, because that website is where I do all my reading. Even if someone was referencing a comic that was not on the website, that said person could just send us pictures of the whole comic. If no change in the rules occur, drop me out of the tournament. I'm not participating in something so ridiculous

Well you don't have to participate in the tournament then. I never told you to join, you decided to join, and you character still hasn't been confirmed for submission yet anyway. I never once said you are not allowed to use comic books as evidence, never said it, but what I did say is just a comic book is not enough. You can give just a comic book, that's within the rules, I never said it wouldn't be excepted, all I said is that is not enough. And one of the last points you stated in your comment, is EXACTLY what I said, give pictures of the comic book itself, if you know the source that's fantastic, give the source, but also take a picture of the page you want to reference, and post it with the comic together. Or at the very least, give the link directly to the comic, if you can find it, then post the link so it's right there and they can read it themselves. I'm not going to strictly ask everyone to give a comic issue. And I am not the one being ridiculous, far from it, I'm trying to compromise in a grey neutral area, I never once said you could give a out of context scan, what I did say was that all you have to do is give the scan and comic. Give both then, you have the comic book and the page of that comic book together, you aren't understanding what I'm saying at all. If you decide to give a comic book as evidence, then give the scan from that same comic, it's that easy, you can give both @SirSpidey, I'm not going to completely change the rules just to please you, when the majority of the people are against it, the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. If you don't want to participate then DON'T it's that easy, I never asked you to join, you decided you wanted to. It's not insane, to ask for the comic and the scan from it.

For all we know, you could give a random comic book, that has nothing to do with what you are trying to claim, and we waste our time reading it for no reason, and that can be qualified as a delay of debate. I don't see why you have such a huge problem with giving scans YOURSELF, if you know your comics, and you know where it is from, why do you have such a huge problem with giving scans yourself? Give scans from the comics you reference and it won't be out of context, because the comic is right there to prove it's in context, or is it because you are giving comics that have nothing to do with the point you are trying to make? If your comics YOUR are reliable, then you should have NO PROBLEM with giving a scan from them. I'll say it like this. A scan is mandatory, a comic is optional, if you don't like that don't join, I'll respect your decision.

@soulcollector34: Lol, "...just a comic book is not enough." Though I completely disagree with how you are allowing everyone to present their evidence, I will join the tournament, but with one condition. Sure, people can use out of context scans, but my only request is that they need to be able to provide the comic from which the scan came from upon request. If they can't do this simple task, their evidence should be completely disregarded and confirmed to be unreliable.

I'm willing to compromise, here is my counter proposal. If no comic book issue is given, they will not be counted as completely unreliable, but if you give the comic book issue, you will be given additional points, 1-2, that way those without the exact comic will not be penalized, but those who add the comic book evidence will be rewarded extra, it's a win win for everyone. But all I ask of you is that you add the scan from that comic book. For example if what you are referencing is on page 8, of Journey Into Mystery #157, you tell them that, but you also take a picture of page 8 and link it with your comment, or at the very least give the link leading directly to that comic, I think that is reasonable for everyone, where no one is penalized for doing the bare minimum, but people are rewarded for going beyond what is required. I think that's fair and suits everyone's needs.

I can agree with that, but what if their scan's are so out of context that it cannot be determined if it is reliable or not, delaying the debate, which, if I remember correctly, is a violation of the rules

@Sirspidey, well if something is THAT out of context it would be very noticeable and won't be counted.
@AndreasVer, I already chose Colossus before you joined which is why you can't have him, Namor was one of your choices so I gave you that as an option and you chose it but anyway, characters such as Magneto, Loki and all the others you listened is because they are TOO powerful. Magneto might lift less than Iron Man, but his ability to affect electromagnetic fields FAR exceeds his physical limits. He is an Omega level mutant which by definition can wipe out all life on Earth at the bare minimum meaning Magneto is around planet surface levels of power, continental if you want to low ball, and this is proven as he has in the past altered a planet's rotation. Loki isn't allowed because while physically he's average, his magic is extremely powerful, as he has harmed Thor in the past. No, you can't use Martian Manhunter feats for Namor. That is the single most ridiculous thing I've heard in a LONG time for one they are completely different characters, for two, I don't care what the site says, Martian Manhunter outclasses Namor in strength, and finally you can't use that as a reason to use those feats. That's like using TOAA feats for the Flash because they have the same speed, that is a flawed way of debating and no one will take you seriously. I'm not saying anyone should, it's an analogy, knowing you I had to explain that part.

I was thinking street level to mid-level, something like, the lowest being around Batman level, and the highest being around Iron Man level, or something like that, but I'm fine with just street level.

Just street-level is better. The cut off would be Spider-Man or Cyborg or something.

Alright, then just street level it is.

Scoring System-
Claim without evidence- 1 point
Claim with evidence- 3 points
Debunking a claim- 3 points
Debunking a claim with evidence- 5 points
Rebuttal- 3 points
Rebuttal with evidence- 5 points
Each comment will be scored 0-5 depending on it's relevance to the topic, if it's poor it gets a 0, if it is good, 5 points, those points will be added to the base score (the points listed above). So the highest amount of points for 1 comment is 10.
Deduction of Points-
For every insult; -1 point
Comments that have nothing to do with the debate; -3 points
Useless comments; -5 points

Examples of what these would look like.
A comment without evidence: My character has been shown to destroy planets before, and has defeated and contended with powerful beings such as _ and is multiple times the speed of light.
A comment with evidence: My character has been shown to destroy planets (link to scan) and is easily capable of massively faster than light speeds (link to scan).
Comments that have nothing to do with the debate: Well my character is similar to (random character) from (completely different franchise) and would win because that person has small similarities, and because (random political figure) is bad at what they do and is ruining (random country)'s economy where (random character) is said to live at.
Useless comments: You are wrong. My character stomps. That's not true. Prove it. You did a bad job debunking it.

BTW - This one is with street-level characters, so we can see who is truly dedicated to debating, even without their favorite character. No biggy if you don't want to join, but seriously, if you say you are a good debater, try it with a different character.