(SirSpidey) Earth 616 Thor vs (LordTracer) Pre/Post Crisis Hal Jordan

If you were going to tally up the scores, what was the point of the 1 day rule?

@LordTracer, The 1 day rule is just a time limit not a means of victory. I made it 1 day so that there is a sense of urgency otherwise people could wait a whole week or so before replying and could eventually forget about it and a winner is never decided which is unacceptable. In debates with these rules there must be a winner.

It also says "will be decided", not that person loses.

Correction: "Will be declared"

"Winners will be decided by a judge (probably @Galactus to avoid all bias), a council of their peers, admitted defeat, OR A DEBATER TAKING OVER 1 DAY TO RESPOND."
The rules literally say that a winner will be decided if one party in the debate takes over a day to respond.

I wrote the rules, nowhere does it say the party taking too long loses it just says will be declared. And it says "By a judge... or a debater taking longer than 1 day to respond." This battle has a judge so the battle must be decided by a judge. I had a similar discussion like this with @Swarm towards the top of the forum.

6. A winner will be declared by a judge (Preferably @Galactus or anyone that will show no bias towards either character or debater), a council or their peers (everyone watching the debate), admitted defeat or a debater taking longer than 1 day to respond.
The one day rule applies if no judge is present, I am the judge so if @SirSpidy doesn't respond in 1 hour I will declare @LordTracer the winner.

I don't feel like, waiting the rest of the hour and the 1 day time limit has been reached, a winner will be decided by Judge's decision, give me a moment to tally up the score and a winner will soon be declared.

https://www.askideas.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/When-People-Sing-Happy-Birthday-To-You-And-You-Just-Sit-There-Like-Funny-Image.jpg

Damn I thought SS - 41 and LT - 31. Was pretty close though

"Was" being the key word, ever since then has been nonstop SirSpidey.

We already have one

• Krona: Well, Spectre isn't technically scared of Parallax, he just "fears the primitive power of emotions" as Spectre himself said. Not only has Darkseid never destroyed multiple Universes, but Superman is nowhere close to the power of Darkseid. Darkseid = Solar System / Superman = Planet. What do you mean, only "stated?" The Sentry was literally said to have stalemated Galactus. That is much more than merely being "stated" to be able to. It means the Sentry HAS done it in the past. What do you mean the Destroyer doesn't get his power from Odin, Zues, and Vishnu? You are denying what the comics themselves say
• Mandrakk: Well, the other Green Lanterns were obviously lying as they helped in spiking Mandrakk

Oops, wrong one

correction- 45-33 in favor of @SirSpidey.

https://giphy.com/gifs/funny-dance-kids-xXud4DaGlJoRy?utm_source=media-link&utm_medium=landing&utm_campaign=Media%20Links&utm_term=http://m.facebook.com/

https://media.tenor.com/images/cc35cf1443c381085d9c8dba21bd8159/tenor.gif

How do you score the points?

Scoring system for Judges:
Claim without evidence- +1 point
Claim with evidence- +3 points
Disproving a claim with evidence using evidence- +5 points
Unjustified insult- -3 points
Justified insult- -1 point
Stating a false claim - -5 points
If neither admits defeat and it goes to judge's decision most points is declared the winner.

Okay thanks

@SirSpidey That is correct, luck for him though that he responded with a few hours to spare.

I didn't even see that he replied at first, that's why I didn't say anything.

I know, the debate can still continue, that is why I made the time limit 1 day because comments get lost, and people have personal things to do during a debate.

Kind of a random joke to make Nemian

You know it

Okay, so 1-D, 2-D, and 3-D. I know about that. What I don't understand is how you can't measure one's strength if they transcend those Dimensional barriers

@SirSpidey once we get to the 4th dimensional levels of power it's really all speculation. Breaking through the 4th dimension gives you 4th dimensional attack potency, warping a portion of time, completely altering it gives you 4th dimensional reality warping, and being a singular entity not affected by time at all (TOAA, the Phoenix, Mr. Mxy etc.) makes you a 4th dimensional being.

Nice! If that is true, then it further cements my argument that Mjolnir is Omnipotent as Mjolnir transcends time, or the 4th Dimension. But even then, if someone does transcend the 4th Dimension, it doesn't mean that you can't calculate their strength because for strength we use feats, correct?

Correct.

Thor Volume 2 #25

I found nothing about Death in this chapter.
Can you point out a specific part of it ?

Also this is not to really interferevin the debate but prove he can defeat a near omnipotent being would add something on the feats hal vs thor

Thor Volume 2 #25 - Page 10 - Panel 4

I see Thor beating Mangog ?

That's because you don't read comics

All my claims come from research on multiple sites, previous debates, and a video explaining the ins and outs of dimensional tiering when debating a fictional battle, and a lot of it is common sense.

No, the first three dimensions are length, width and depth. Then space and time follow. Or spacetime as the singular fourth dimension.

Hal is high multiversal, and the definition of high multiversal is "Characters who can destroy and/or create a countably infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums. Take note that the universes are technically lined up along a 5-dimensional axis, but that their geometrical size still amounts to 0 within this scale."

Hal is High Multiversal but not infinite multiversal to be that someone would need the power to wipe out every universe in existence and all the space between, and to be considered 4th dimensional you have to be above and unaffected by time itself, and the fact there are multiple Hal Jordan's across multiple universes with multiple timelines on there own he is not 4th dimensional.

And after what you said that would make Hal 5th dimensional and he no where near Mr.Mxy who is a 5th dimensional being.

Time is the 5th dimension, not the 4th one. So you don't have to be above time to be 4D. And what did I say that would make Hal look like a 5D being?

You said "destroy or create a countably number of infinite 4th dimensional universal space time continuums" which means Hal would need 4th Dimensional attack potency or 4th dimensional reality warping and he has neither of those. And it is widely accepted that the 4th dimension is time.

"The fourth dimension is generally understood to refer to a hypothetical fourth spatial dimension, added on to the standard three dimensions. It should not be confused with the view of space-time, which adds a fourth dimension of time to the universe. The space in which this dimension exists is referred to as 4-dimensional Euclidean space."

No, the 5th dimension is time. The 4th dimension is space. And if you can content in a match of power with a high multiversal being, or easily harm a being with high multiversal durability (like Hal did), that makes you high multiversal.

As far as I know, time is the fourth dimension. If it isn't, what IS the fourth dimension? Just trying to learn here... :)

"The 4th dimension is space." Isn't space just three dimensional?

1st Dimension- is just an infinite continuous line "length".
2nd Dimension- Is the same but it creates "height"
3rd Dimension- "Width" or the SPACE between.
4th Dimension- The Time in which all 1st, 2nd, and 3rd dimensions exist.

1 - Length
2 - Width
3 - Depth
4 - Space
5 - Time

Do y'all have any credible evidence for all these claims, or are y'all just quoting someone off of Quora or something?

Not really. If anything, it would be harder to push an object against the wall as you would be pushing against the weight of the object plus the friction of the wall

No. Has Thor ever done that? Some of Hal's greatest feats of strengh are casually moving the moon several times. And as a rookie, Hal was able to hold the continents of Earth together while a machine was trying to turn the continents back to Pangaea.

Yes, Thor has done this in Thor Volume 1 #494. Thor is also stated as having unlimited strength in Journey Into Mystery #103

Doesn't Yggdrasil have a certain amount of realms on it? So Thor was straining to push a finite amount of strength. And he wasn't lifting it, he was pushing it.

Why does literally everyone make that ridiculous point? No offense, but come on, is pushing that much different from lifting? It is essentially the exact same thing. Anyways, they are not realms, they are 9 individual Universes. So Thor pushed the weight of 9 Universes

They are quite different. Someone could be able to push a car, but not lift it. Pushing is considered attack potency, while lifting is (duh) lifting strength. So, Thor has multi-universal attack potency. Oh, are we using Odin Force Thor or not?

If you know someone who can push the weight of a car, consider them a superhero. I think you don't understand that when people push cars, it is due to momentum and the fact that the weight of the car is resting on top of wheels. And whenever you combine wheels and momentum, you can often move objects of weight that are seemingly impossible to move. In Thor's case, that is not the situation. He did not have wheels to generate enough momentum to lift the weight of 9 Universes. All he had was his own raw strength. Where did you get attack potency from. Pushing is still lifting. If you want to get technical, if you are lifting the Earth, you are really pushing it as that is what pushing is, moving something away from your body. As for Odin Force Thor, to save you the trouble, no, we will not be using Odin Force Thor as that would be way too unfair

So, Thor has better lifting feats, though he and Hal's strengths are both immeasurable. As Thor is (at least) multi-universal, he transcends three dimensions, therefore making his strength immeasurable. And Hal, being a high multiversal level threat and possibly higher, also transcends three dimensions, so his strength is immeasurable as well.
I'm just saying this because Thor might have better feats, but Hal could potentially rival his strength. We can't ever accurately know though, because neither of their strengths can be measured.

The difference between these two characters strength is that one has physically shown to be capable of lifting an infinite amount of weight while the other one, according to your evidence, is only shown physically capable of lifting the weight of the Moon. Also, to my knowledge and according to your evidence, there are no connections of Hal Jordan being stated as having unlimited strength. So you can't just assume that he does, you need evidence

I'm not assuming. If a character transcends three dimensions, it is literally impossible for us to measure their strength.

One, in which comic does Hal Jordan transcend three dimensions? Two, how does someone transcending three dimensions make their strength immeasurably? I need a ton of explaining

Hal is high multiversal. To be high multiversal, you have to be four dimensional, and just on the edge of five dimensional. If you, as a being, transcend three dimensions, then it is literally impossible to measure your strength. Cause unless I'm missing something, you can't measure something that's beyond the three dimensional concepts of mass.

In which comic is Hal Jordan shown to be high Multiversal? Why is it impossible to measure the strength of something that transcends three dimensions? Why can't you measure something that is beyond the three dimensional concepts of mass? What even are the three dimensional concepts of mass?

He one-shot Krona, a high multiversal level threat. He also overpowered The Spectre and broke his jaw. The three dimensional concepts of mass is how things are measured.

COMICS dude, I need comics. What dictates that the the three dimensional concepts of mass are how things are measured? Is there a scientific law or something? Because according to my knowledge, tons, pounds, quarts, feet, etc. are what we use to measure things

He killed Krona in Green Lantern Vol 4 #67. As for when he fought Spectre, I don't know the exact issue, but it was during Blackest Night. If you want the scans:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cf6ffc964d645986da981405aead7c53
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4b24ebd90f328b80da09df129231cae0
Hal also killed Mandrakk, the Dark Monitor.
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a00cd916d7b5ab678b26e1274d49fb7e

• Krona: That's great and all, but in which comic does Krona prove that he is a high Multiversal level threat
• Spectre: That is not Spectre
• Mandraak: It took the entire Green Lantern Corps to stab him, so Hal Jordan, as of yet, has proven incapable of defeating Mandrakk on his own

Also, what dictates that the the three dimensional concepts of mass are how things are measured? Is there a scientific law or something? Because according to my knowledge, tons, pounds, quarts, feet, etc. are what we use to measure things

Krona: Krona had all seven emotional entities buffing him, remember? Parallax was able to fight Spectre, which would already make him high multiversal. Ion is the equal to Parallax, so he would have to be high multiversal as well. The other emotional entities, I'm not sure how powerful they are.
Spectre: Yes it is.
Mandrakk: All of the Green Lanterns but Hal were saying that their rings were empty or woudn't work.
—————
Tons, pounds, feet and etc do correlate with space and time, the fourth and fifth dimensions.

*do not

• Krona: You say that as if I am supposed to be impressed or something. The Emotional Entities are merely at Lantern power level. It was Krona with the power of a mere 7 Lanterns. That really isn't that powerful. Also, in which comic does Parallax fight and defeat the Spectre? Where in the comics does it show or say that Ion is as powerful as Parallax? You are making a ton of claims, but with no evidence correlated with them whatsoever. How am I suppose to know if what you're saying is fact or not if you don't site your evidence?
• Spectre: Not only does that not look at all like the Spectre, but nowhere in your scans does it say that it is the Spectre
• Mandrakk: Not really. "So gimme one last effort, team. ALL TOGETHER! And spike this Vampire!" They were definitely working together as the comic clearly says. Plus, even before the Green Lanterns spiked that Vampire, a ton of Supermen were lazering the Vampire to death. So the Green Lantern's killed an already severely weakened Vampire. Also, notice how I am saying Vampire instead of Mandrakk. How am I suppose to know if that Is Mandrakk or not? Your scans sure as Hell don't tell me

"Tons, pounds, feet and etc do not correlate with space and time, the fourth and fifth dimensions." What does this have to with anything concerning how things are measured?

Krona: How are the emotional entities equal to basic Lanterns? The point of them is to embody the Emotional Spectrum. In Zero Hour, Parallax defeated The Spectre and several other superheroes.
Spectre: What the hell are you talking about, it looks exactly like The Spectre, he's just a Black Lantern. He also said "You will rejoin me", referring to when Hal was The Spectre. Sinestro also calls him Spectre in the second scan.
Mandrakk: The comic also says that all the GLs were either low on power, or empty. He's also stated as Mandrakk in Final Crisis #7.

It's explaining why fourth, fifth, sixth and higher dimensional beings have immeasurable strength.

• Krona: Because the regular Lanterns were easily fending them off. What do you mean "Zero Hour"? That's like saying "Thor is stated as being immortal in Journey Into Mystery." C'mon now, you are not going to be able to find that feat anytime soon, don't you think? I need the exact issue Parallax defeats the Spectre, not the name of the entire run that he does this in
• Spectre: The last time I checked, the Spectre was not a giant black decaying zombie figure. Ahh, of course you left that part out. Why didn't you say it was the Black Lantern Spectre in the first place? What feats has the Black Lantern Spectre accomplished that would make one suggest he is just as powerful as regular Spectre? I honestly cannot read anything Sinestro says in your second scan. Do you know what will fix this problem? Give me the damn comic
• Mandrakk: I think this one is settled. Hal Jordan did not defeat Mandrakk on his own. Either it was with the help of a ton of Supermen, his fellow Green Lanterns or both, Hal Jordan did not do it on his own

How?

Krona: They're also the cause of the Lantern Corps' power. Parallax fights The Spectre in Zero Hour #0.
—————
Spectre: What says Spectre wouldn't be more powerful with a Black Ring? And that was in Green Lantern, Vol. 4 #50.
—————
Mandrakk: Okay, even if it wasn't just Hal, he still needs at least multiversal attack potency. Remember, Mandrakk took hits from the Thought Robot, who is a multiversal being.

• Krona: Okay? That still doesn't change the fact that regular Lanterns could easily fend them off. As for the Parallax vs Spectre battle, lol. Just lol. Not only did Parallax have a close to zero effect upon the Spectre, but he got damaged by a mere Batarang, his energy blast couldn't even go through a mere mortal human like Batgirl, he easily got overpowered by a Green Lantern, and he easily got overwhelmed by a group of superheroes no one has ever heard of. Is that suppose to impress me or something? I mean, you can surely do better than that, correct?
• Spectre: Umm, I don't know? Maybe that he was getting completely punked by some mere Lanterns. So I'll ask the question again, what feats has the Black Lantern Spectre accomplished that would make one suggest he is just as powerful as regular Spectre?
• Mandrakk: Why would he need that? He was incapable of hurting Mandrakk on his own. What do you mean "remember"? No offense intended, but I have no clue what you are talking about half the time. In which comic does Mandrakk fight the Thought Robot? In which comic is it stated that the Thought Robot is a Multiversal threat?

Krona: Basic Lanterns overpowering the thing that gives them their power is PIS/WIS. And what do you mean Parallax did nothing? He was fighting evenly with him, then he blasted Spectre, Spectre cried in pain and Kyle Rayner then said, "The Spectre's sacrifice has weakened you..."
—————
Spectre: Nobody was doing any real damage except for Hal. It's more logical to assume he's at his normal power level then to assume that he's not for some reason.
—————
Mandrakk: The Thought Robot is in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2.

• Krona: Lol, of course you would think it is PIS. Just because something doesn't go your way, doesn't mean that it is PIS. That is just a lame excuse. As for Parallax, one, I did not say Parallax did nothing to the Spectre, don't start putting words in my mouth, I said Parallax had a close to zero effect upon the Spectre, which is true as Parallax was only capable of merely hurting the Spectre with no signs of bodily damage. Two, what do YOU mean "Parallax defeated The Spectre?" As I explained above, Parallax was only capable of hurting the Spectre, he was not capable of killing him. Stop over exaggerating Hal Jordan's capabilities
• Spectre: You are acting as if damaging a Black Lantern Spectre is impressive or something. Not only did it have zero effect on Black Lantern Spectre when Hal Jordan damaged him, but literally on the very next panel, it is clearly shown that Black Lantern Spectre instantly regenerated his missing body parts. Plus, don't you think it would be expected for a decaying corpse like Black Lantern Spectre to be easily damaged? So, it's more logical to assume that Black Lantern Spectre is vastly less durable than his regular version as he is a decaying corpse wielding a Black Lantern Ring
• Mandrakk: Lol, Mandrakk got his ass handed to him by the Thought Robot. So let me get this straight, using your logic, all those Supermen and all those Green Lantern need Multiversal attack potency because they damaged Mandrakk!? C'mon now, that is just ridiculous. I think you have a problem with completely overrating Hal Jordan's feats. There is no possible way Hal Jordan has Multiversal attack potency if he merely was able to HURT Mandrakk with the help of his fellow Green Lanterns and the help of a ton of Supermen. That is just not logical

Krona: How would you be able to fight evenly with the being that gives you power? That's like if Spectre could fight evenly with The Presence. Of course it's PIS. Kyle Rayner literally said "The Spectre's sacrifice." That means Parallax either killed him, or defeated him.
Spectre: It's still The Spectre. He should still have high multiversal durability. He can still output the same amount of damage as normal, so his durability must be the same as well. So, no, I don't think it would be easier to damage him.
Mandrakk: If he can damage the Thought Robot, who has multiversal attack potency/durability, then Mandrakk must also have multiversal attack potency/durability.

• Krona: I don't know, and I don't care. It happened, now get over it. Does it even look like in the comic that Parallax defeated the Spectre? The answer is NO. Parallax got his ass handed to him not only by the Spectre and Kyle Rayner, but by all of those other unheard of superheroes. How does Kyle Rayner saying, "The Spectre's sacrifice" equate to Parallax defeating the Spectre. That makes literally zero sense. You seriously have a chronic illness of over exaggerating Hal Jordan's feats. You need to go get that checked out
• Spectre: Black Lantern Spectre and regular Spectre are two completely different characters. One personifies Death, the other is the Presence's wrath. Of course Black Lantern Spectre is going to be less durable. Considering he is a decaying zombie who wields a Black Ring which would mean he personifies Death, I think Black Lantern Spectre being less durable than regular Spectre is accurate
• Mandrakk: And what is this adding to your argument?

Krona: If we're taking PIS as canon, then Wasp must be the strongest member of the Avengers since she one-shotted Thor. The statement of "The Spectre's sacrifice" insinuates that the Spectre died, or was at least defeated. You overestimate Thor's feats too. The man is not superior to Death.
Spectre: Black Lantern Spectre is not the personification of Death. I don't think she has any relation to the Black Lanterns. It's still the Wrath of God, he just wields a Black Ring now.
Mandrakk: You asked a question, and I was answering it.

• Krona: What do you mean, "if we're taking PIS as canon?" All PIS is canon as long as it happened in mainstream continuity. Are you trying to tell me that Green Lantern Vol 4 #67 isn't canon? Because that is what your logic is telling me. In which comic did Wasp one-shot Thor and why have I never heard about it? Are you over exaggerating a characters capabilities again? 😊😂 lol, are you seriously trying to convince me that Parallax (the same dude who got beat by Kyle Rayner and a bunch of other unheard of superheroes) defeated the Spectre!? Yeah, no. Don't kid yourself kid. Parallax got his ass beat, get over it. I think this Parallax vs Spectre debate is over as you clearly have proven yourself incapable of providing a valid argument. Give me one instance where I have overestimated Thor's feats. I sure as hell didn't do it whenever I stated Thor is more powerful than Death. That one is fact. If not, prove it. So when?
• Spectre: Considering Parallax was incapable of damaging the Spectre and Parallax is much more powerful than Hal Jordan, I think it is safe to say that because Hal Jordan was able to damage the Black Lantern Spectre, Black Lantern Spectre is vastly less powerful than regular Spectre
• Mandrakk: You most certainly did not answer my question. Let me ask it again, so let me get this straight, using your logic, all those Supermen and all those Green Lantern need Multiversal attack potency because they combined damaged Mandrakk!?

Krona: It's a general rule of debating that you don't take PIS and outlier feats as canon. As as for Wasp one-shorting Thor: https://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111284868/5779229-4632495076-Hurts.jpg
As I've said, the embodiment of fear cannot be beaten by beings who's power he can nullify. Any time they've beaten him was PIS. Parallax clearly didn't get his ass beat since The Spectre had to sacrifice himself to give the other heroes a chance. Thanos is only every stated to have Death's power by himself. He is never shown to actually have her power. As I've said, egoistical characters like Thanos and Doctor Doom overrate their own abilities. And considering that base Thanos has defeated Thor with the Power Gem, it doesn't make sense for Thor to be able to beat Thanos when they're both amped. And another point about that comic, you can't use it since Thor was amped when he fought Thanos.
Spectre: Oh, my... Again, Spectre had to sacrifice himself so the heroes would have a chance at killing Parallax. And since Hal killed a Parallax, Ion, Predator, etc. buffed Krona, Parallax is not stronger than Hal. HJ > Krona > Parallax >= Spectre
Mandrakk: Yes, I did answer that question. If someone has multiversal durability, like Mandrakk, you need multiversal attack potency to harm him.

Well, I was in the middle of my response and then I accidentally refreshed the page because my phone is slow as balls. So I'll respond as soon as possible. Faaaaaaq

• Krona: Well, you are clearly very new to debating so I don't think you are in the position to dictate to me what is a debating rule and what is not. @Soulcollector57 already created the rules. Nowhere in the rules does it say that we have to take PIS as non-canon. If you actually knew how debating worked, you would know that all debaters from ComicVine and similar websites use PIS in debates to lowball their opponents character. That is not to say that we can't try and dismiss PIS, but to say that it isn't considered canon shows just how little you know how debates actually work. As for Thor vs Wasp, really!? Just, really!? You are joking, right? You give me a completely out of context scan that proves literally nothing about what you have been talking about and expect for me to accept it? C'mon now dude, you had to have known that this was going to happen with such shitty evidence, correct? Do you even know which comic this shit of a piece of evidence comes from? As for Parallax vs Spectre, you are acting like it can't happen, but it literally just happened right in front of your eyes. Quit living in denial and get over it

• Krona (Continued): What do you mean the Spectre sacrificed himself? The Spectre was completely fine after he, Kyle Rayner, and a bunch of other unheard of superheroes completely destroyed Parallax. Kyle Rayner was just saying that the Spectre sacrificed his time to weaken Parallax for the rest of them to finish Parallax off. As for Thor vs Death, what do you mean Thanos was never shown to actually have Death's power? He was literally destroying the Universe. You are just assuming that Thanos overrates his own abilities, which is fine because it further increases the points I get which ultimately means I will win the debate. So while you assume everything, I actually go off of exactly what the comics say. It does make sense for Thor to beat a massively amped Thanos because Thor has consistently proven to defeat foes near Death's level of power. Thor has defeated the Void, Galactus, Glory, the Destroyer, and many more. Why do you say I can't use this feat? I know you know that it outdoes any feat that Hal Jordan has ever accomplished, but that is no reason to lamely dismiss it. While Thanos was amped to the point to where he was as powerful as Death, Thor only received a partially empowered Odin Force armour set which means only Thor's durability was buffed

• Spectre: The Parallax vs Spectre fight is OVER. Get over it. Quit talking about it because you are just embarrassing yourself. You are acting as if Hal Jordan defeating an Emotional Entity buffed Krona is suppose to impress me or something. You have yet to prove that the Emotional Entities and Krona are very powerful at all so please, keep trying • Mandrakk: Oh, okay. So give all those Supermen and all those Green Lanterns helping Hal Jordan Multiversal attack potency. Very logical of you @LordTracer. Can this topic be over? You obviously have proven yourself incapable of providing a valid argument

Not trying to be a smart ass but Thor was rendered unconscious by a handgun

Krona: First of all, I go on Comic Vine frequently, and I know that if someone brings up a PIS feat, within the next two posts, it is recognized as such and ignored. It makes no sense to use a feat that only exists so the plot can progress if a character cannot do that normally. If you want to take PIS as canon (and you clearly do), then Thor must not be FTL, since an amped White Tiger was able to speedblitz him, he can't catch Captain America, he can't hit Ian Zola, he failed to hit a dragon while Mantis could, Scorpion tagged him, I could go on and on. I am aware that Parallax has been defeated by basic Lanterns before. It's still PIS. How is Kyle saying that Spectre sacrificed his time? Spectre did not fight Parallax again after he took that final hit from him. And in the issue I gave you with Black Lantern Spectre, Hal figures out that Spectre is scared of Parallax. Why would he be scared of him if Parallax isn't more powerful than him? As for Thor v. Thanos, you can destroy the universe without being on the level of Death. Glory, Galactus, etc. are not even close to the level of Death. Thor does not consistently beat people on her level. Especially when he gets outsped by street levelers, and defeated by numerous people weaker than Death, such as Thanos.
Spectre: You're using PIS to discount Parallax, when you can clearly see that he can fight evenly with The Spectre.
Mandrakk: The Supermen did not help with the final blow. That was all Hal.

• Krona: Did I not just say, "That is not to say that we can't try and dismiss PIS?" You keep saying that we can't take PIS as canon except PIS is always considered canon as long as it happened in mainstream continuity. That is what I have been saying from the beginning, you just like to ignore me. So can you please actually read and comprehend what I have to say? All in all, stop saying PIS isn't canon. You are just embarrassing yourself. Do you seriously think spouting off what someone from the internet said concerning the lowballing of Thor will impress me. Not only did you not give me any evidence, but it also doesn't surprise me that Thor gets bested by lower beings as Thor always holds back against mortals and beings with less strength or durability than him in fear that he will kill them or humble his friends (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11123/111230790/4589568-8436559782-ThorR.jpg). Don't get me wrong though, I could also spout off the low showings of Hal Jordan, but I'm not going to because I'm not that lame as you are.

• Krona (Continued): As for Parallax vs Spectre, YES, keep talking about this topic so I can milk the most points out of you as possible. I don't think it is PIS if it happens everytime Parallax fights the Green Lanterns. What do you mean, "Spectre did not fight Parallax again after he took that final hit from him?" Oh, I wonder why George, maybe because Parallax got destroyed before Spectre could do anything else? Yeah, that sounds right. Also, using your logic, shouldn't Batwoman have Multiversal attack potency since she was able to damage Parallax? Why would Spectre be scared of Parallax!? I don't know, maybe because Parallax is the literal embodiment of fear. C'mon @LordTracer, let's try and use at least some of our brain.

As for Thor vs Death, lol, because destroying a Universe wouldn't put you on the power level of Death, seriously? Glory as described by co creator J.M. DeMatteis, "The thing that makes Glory so interesting to me, at least, is the fact that he's not one single god. He's the embodiment of an entire pantheon. Imagine if all the gods of Asgard were one being, contained within the body of Odin, and you'll get some sense of just how powerful Glory is. Add to the fact that he's the god of a race that lives a brutal existence of unending war and suffering. Glory is a reflection of the violence and struggle and madness of the people that worship him or her or it, depending on your perspective. In other words, he's not just powerful, he's mean, depraved. Cosmically mean and depraved. His view of life, the universe and everything is incredibly dark, brutal; tearing down Creation alongside Chaos is a no-brainer for Glory." That is Glory for you. Why would you not think Glory is as powerful as Death? Galactus is considered a sibling to Death, Oblivion, Eternity, and Infinity. Why wouldn't Galactus be as powerful or close to as powerful as Death? The Void is more powerful than Galactus so why would he not be as powerful as Death? The Destroyer has the power of three Sky Fathers, namely Odin, Zeus, and Vishnu. Hell, the Destroyer was literally created to fend off Celestials so why wouldn't you think he is as powerful as Death? These are the questions I need answers to

• Krona (Continued): As for Parallax vs Batwoman, you are trying to justify Batwoman being able to damage Parallax, but if a merely weakened Parallax is only street level, how in the hell could Parallax be Multiversal at full power? That makes zero sense. Just because some characters aren't scared of Parallax doesn't mean that Spectre can't be scared of him. That makes zero sense. As for Death, in which comic did Death destroy a Multiverse? In which comic does Superman, Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, and Aquaman destroy multiple Universes? Considering Galactus has many feats to suggest he is as powerful as Death, Galactus being the sibling of Death would make him just as powerful as her. Regular Sentry is capable of stalemating Galactus. Considering the Void is more powerful than the Sentry, I think it is safe to say that the Void is more powerful than Galactus. Yes, the Destroyer always has the power of Odin, Zeus, and Vishnu as that is the power that gives the Destroyer its power
• Spectre: Okay then, this topic is over. I have successfully proven you wrong. Parallax is nowhere near as powerful as the Spectre
• Mandrakk: Lol, in which comic did Superman destroy multiple Universes? Also, there is a vast difference between Multiversal and Universal. Oh yeah, just completely disregard the fact that they were all working together as a team, AS HAL JORDAN SAID HIMSELF

• Krona (Comment that I accidentally deleted): Lol, I give you solid evidence and you just say, "Thor doesn't always hold back, though." Really dude? That is just lame. Do you even have any evidence for that? As for Hal Jordan vs Black Lantern Spectre, thank you so much for referencing Green Lantern Volume 4 #51! Now I know you have been living a LIE this entire time. You little fake, the Black Lantern Spectre is merely "a SHELL hiding the true Spectre." He is a f****** shell, @LordTracer. The true Spectre was encased in a facade of "lifeless programming" (Black Lantern Spectre) meaning Black Lantern Spectre had zero durability whatsoever. I could go on if you would like, but I think I have proven my point. Black Lantern Spectre does not have the durability of the true Spectre. Hell, the Black Lantern Spectre has zero durability at all as his flesh is lifeless. Also, if you still think Parallax is as powerful as Spectre, read this quote by Sinestro and rethink your logic, "Come to me Parallax. Before the Spectre destroys you."

Krona: Why would God's Wrath be scared of something that Superman isn't scared of? Superman, Hal, Diana and Aquaman all scale to each other, and Superman scales to Darkseid. Sentry has only be STATED to be able to stalemate Galactus. Iirc, he has never actually been able to stalemate him. Hasn't Destroyer been beaten by non-Odin Force Thor? If so, there is no way he always has power from them. As for your second comment, I actually didn't see that part of the comic. I'll give you that.
Mandrakk: You're disregarding that all the other Lanterns said they didn't have any power level.

Hold on, I'm responding

• Krona: Well, Spectre isn't technically scared of Parallax, he just "fears the primitive power of emotions" as Spectre himself said. Not only has Darkseid never destroyed multiple Universes, but Superman is nowhere close to the power of Darkseid. Darkseid = Solar System / Superman = Planet. What do you mean, only "stated?" The Sentry was literally said to have stalemated Galactus. That is much more than merely being "stated" to be able to. It means the Sentry HAS done it in the past. What do you mean the Destroyer doesn't get his power from Odin, Zues, and Vishnu? You are denying what the comics themselves say
• Mandrakk: Well, the other Green Lanterns were obviously lying as they helped in spiking Mandrakk

Krona: You don't have to actually destroy multiple universes to be multi-universal. Superman has been able to fight with Darkseid before. Darkseid is so vastly above solar system level, and Superman is far above planetary. New 52 Darkseid and New 52 Superman are on that level, but I'm talking about Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis Darkseid and Superman. Sentry's fight with Galactus was never shown, and he doesn't have any feats suggesting that he can replicate that. And we don't know how fed Galactus was when Sentry fought him. He could have been starving. Odin Force Thor isn't even above Odin, Zeus and Vishnu combined, so how would non-Odin Force Thor? Also, hasn't Loki operated the Destroyer?
Mandrakk: Why would they lie about their rings being empty? There's literally no reason.

I would rather not use opinions of a random guy who I do not know to base my argument off of

Perfectly fine by me

Like the new look Spidey!

Thanks

If you want to, sure. What feats would classify as "intelligence" though?

I don't know? Here, let me give you some examples:
1.) Journey Into Mystery #85 - Thor knows about and understands how Anti-Matter works
2.) Journey Into Mystery #90 - With just a look, understands that the metal that the spaceship is made up of is not found on Earth and is likely from another Galaxy
3.) Journey Into Mystery #111 - Thor's months of association with Iron Man and the Avengers has given Thor much knowledge of involved, complex systems of electronic component parts that he can modify for his own unique purposes
==================
You know, stuff like that

Um, I actually don't have many feats of that kind. All I've got is this:
—————
1. Hal figured out that his interview wasn't what it seemed. (Green Lantern: Vol. 3, #21)
2. Hal seemingly found out how to disable the mental inhibitors in he and Brik's heads. (Green Lantern: Vol. 3, #21)

So do I win?

Yeah, you can have intelligence.

Noice!