Is Rey a Mary Sue?

Created by Dark_Wing, 1 mo 2 d ago.

Make sure you watch all of the sequel trilogy before you reply!

Comments

pedrofOMAIOR
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
yes
pedrofOMAIOR
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
Óbvio
TheNemianLion
TheNemianLion 1 mo 2 d
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
2 year member
I don't believe so, I just thing it's down to deep rooted misogyny over female characters being strong, sadly a lot of men don't view females as strong individuals, so when a person from a powerful linage such as Rey is naturally rather powerful, incel nerds on the internet complain, the thing is she's not a Mary Sue as she has struggles she can't automatically solve, she needs to go through vast struggle.
show 24 replies
Jakcj
Jakcj 1 mo 1 d
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
2 year member
And that's what we like to call anti-feminism
jongensoden
jongensoden 1 mo 6 h 39 m
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
2 year member
rey is ok its the disgrace called kylo ren who is bs
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 30 d
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
@TheNemianLion They fixed her in ROS but in the last 2 movies she definitely was a Mary Sue. How did she beat Kylo (grandson of Anakin and trained for years by Luke)? How is she suddenly so experienced in the force that she can affect Storm trooper's minds. How can she suddenly summon Anakin's lightsaber even though it's shown by previous jedi to take a while to do that?
This is what annoys so many fans, if they have any critism to a female character they're suddenly misogynist nerds who can't take representation even though those same people loved Ahsoka Tano, Jyn Erso and Wonder Woman.
Last edited: 29 d ago.
Dark_Wing
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
1 year member
@Tyr: how dose TROS fix her? She didn't seem to different in that movie. She beat Kylo because Kylo was 1: weakened due to his mental state 2: heavily injured by both Finn and Chew, and 3: he wasn't even trying, thr entire fight was just Rey running from Kylo who was merely trying to scare her, Kylo then gives her a chance to yield and join him but then Rey catches him off guard with a berserker Force power only then she beats him.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 29 d
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
@Dark_Wing By making her a Palpatine it sort of explains how strong she is in the force. While it doesn't excuse the PIS she went through in TFA and TLJ it makes it more acceptable. She had training in ROS so it made some sense.. Finn doesn't actually hurt Kylo though. I understand that but the odds still should have been heavily in Kylo's favour.
Dark_Wing
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
1 year member
So if I was the son of Bruce Lee I could atomically start throwing one inch punches without training? That's what Rey was doing. What do you by "Finn dose this hurt Kylo" it's very clear that he did. And Rey ain't a pushover either, she's a survivalist, I think it makes since for her with a dark side power up to beat him remember that power up did catch him off guard bty. Fun Fact: Luke was never into the warrior aspects of the Force, he was more into the spiritual side of it meaning Ren probably doesn't have that much hand2hand training which means in that very regard Rey would have a valid reason to be above him.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 28 d
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
You don't like it when I use real life example then use Bruce Lee to compare how star wars works. In star wars medichlorian count is hereditary. Being an athlete in real life doesn't always pass on to your children. Also Kylo did have training. He had the better genes, training, and determination to win yet he lost. How? I said Finn doesn't hurt Kylo. Luke hadn't trained Rey yet so that makes no sense.
Dark_Wing
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
1 year member
My use of it is more reasonable than yours because Star Wars is naturally more realistic than Marvel and none of those characters are several thousand year old warriors being unable to do what warriors do best, it's something that anyone coming out of the theater would think. Fun fact: force power also doesn't always pass down to your children ergo Palpatine's son who was unable to do anything to freaking Stormtroopers in the flashback. Again he lost because he was injured, weakened, didn't want to hurt her, and underestimated her Darkside berserker rage. Do you have any evidence that Ren was trained to fight while he was with Luke? Because who do we know has been doing it her whole life? That's right Rey granddaughter of Palpatine. "Finn doesn't hurt Kylo" https://youtu.be/Lf0qZLK8l-Y 2:10 mark.
Last edited: 28 d ago.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 28 d
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
Star Wars absolutely is not more realistic than Marvel. Most things in Marvel can be explained by science, star wars is as sy fy as it gets. You "fun facts" are never fun, they're just things you bring up. I think Palpatine wanted his son to take over but he rejected that idea meaning his son did have the force. Again that shouldn't be enough given who Kylo Ren is. Kylo was one of Luke's students in his new jedi academy. Read the comics that came out. Rey does no training her whole life. What are you taking about?
Dark_Wing
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
1 year member
Imagine thinking gods from several different pantheons, getting superpowers from mutations or I don't know...maybe ACTUAL MAGIC and witches and wizards who wield said magic! are more realistic than a Chinese Dow like Force and weapons that we may already have the prototypes to here in 2020
> can't be me.
Do you even know what Si-Fi is? It stands for Science fiction. Science fiction is about technology so it's automatically more possible than magic or actual gods. What else should I call my points that aren't big enough for an entire sentence? Then why did Palpatine's son die so quickly, heck Palpatine literally said his son was weak compared to her (referring to Rey). Which new comics? And I'm talking about when Rey had to spend her whole life defending herself on a world full of thugs who are naturally stronger than her because they are aliens. Oh, and Rey had LITERALLY COPIED Kylo's training and added it on to her own experience. Oh and one more thing I'd like to mention: Luke Skywalker only had a few short lesson with Yoda and he still destroyed Vader, a Vader who the RotJ novel implied wasn't holding back. I know the lore makes it very clear Luke had more than that but in the movies he's literally just as much of a Mary Sue as Rey is if not more because the movies and tie in novels don't provide explanations for this while Rey's power dose come with a few explanations.
Last edited: 28 d ago.
Tyrannus
Tyrannus 26 d
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
Where are the prototypes for lightsabers, blasters and star destroyers? I'm waiting. In star wars there's so much that can't be explained by science but we just go with it, we don't question it. In Marvel sure there are magical creatures but other than that most things have an explanation. Heck even Thor's ability to fly was given a reason by Stan Lee in that he swings Mjolnir. Dying quickly doesn't explain anything. Why did Palpatine die so quickly in ROTJ? The Rise of Kylo Ren comics? Read them. The flashbacks in TLJ should suffice however. Fighting of thugs is very different to using a lightsaber which requires the force to use efficiently. Luke gets destroyed by Vader at first. In ROTJ Vader was old, holding back and conflicted while Luke used a surprise attack to get Vader of guard using the dark side to boost him. Time passes very slowly on Degoba so Luke had more time than you thought. I believe Vader would have won had it been anyone else but his son (or daughter Leia). Luke's only proper wins in the whole OT is against Vader and when he destroys the Death Star.
Dark_Wing
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
1 year member
@Tyrannus: sorry for the late reply, I never saw this comment.

"Where is the real life prototypes to lightsabers, blasters or star destroyers?"
Blasters and Lightsabers: https://youtu.be/dK2ym66or6E
Star Destroyers: NASA Space Shuttle? Lol :D
You do realize they're explanations for how ships and weapons work in the databooks? So yes most things in Star Wars also have explanation aswell. Palpatine died because he was cheap shotted by Vader, Kenobi died because he stood there and willfully let Vader strike him down, and Windu died because he was cheap shotted by Anakin. I just looked at them. Just because Ben had a lightsaber doesn't mean he was given much training with it remember Luke was handed his first saber literally five minutes after learning about the Force for the first time and younglings get there lightsabers when they're 10. Other than that I don't see how the Rise of Kylo Ren nor the flashback prove he was trained in lightsaber combat so please explain to me. I mean look at his fighting style, it's very clearly unrefined and looks like Form I ie the most basic form that even Luke was using proficiently literally hours after first hearing about The Force in ANH, heck JJ Abrams even alluded to the fact Kylo wasn't well trained saying and I quote "I wanted the fighting to be more clumsy Amdahl brutal rather than a dance like these two combatants haven't been trained." Rey on the other hand is known for being a great warrior among the people of Jakku which has been stated before. This means Rey should be on the same level as the barley trained whinny monk and despite this she was clearly the inferior between her and Ren. A staff is a melee weapon and all melee weapons have the exact same angles to attack and block from, heck its even shown in TLJ that Rey was using her staff skills with the Anakin lightsaber here https://youtu.be/f2NihqrNDoA. If using a lightsaber required the Force the how (I'll use Disney canon examples only) are General Grievous, Pre Visla, Finn, certain stormtroopers (one of which even being neck and neck with Pre ESB Luke), and Sabine from Rebles able use lightsabers and keep up with Force users with said weapons? By destroyed you mean he held his own against him for quite a while despite not even completing his padawan training? Being old old shouldn't be a hindrance to Vader who is supported by bionics and is only in his mid 50s whereas other powerful Force users like Dooku, Mace, Palpatine, Satele Shan, Darth Malgus, Darth Krayt, Darth Bane, Mara Jade, etc are older than him and still have impressive accomplishments. Being conflicted doesn't change how skillful you are and Vader valued his place with Palpatine more than Luke's life; if he had to chose between killing Luke or letting him join Palpatine, he'd kill him. There is literally just as much evidence to suggest he wasn't holding back as there is to suggest he was, here are a few examples of Luke being equal to Vader:
Last edited: 5 d ago.
Dark_Wing
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
1 year member
1: Star Wars Beware of the Sith says:
Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

2; Star Wars Jedi Battles says:
Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers.

3: the freaking RotJ script says:
Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious than the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.

4: RotJ junior novelization says:
On the Death Star, Luke and Darth Vader were engaged in a duel that was even more vicious than their battle on Cloud City. Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter, and his skill with his lightsaber had improved greatly. As they swung at each other in the Emperor's throne room, Luke sensed the advantage had shifted to him.

5: RotJ novel says:
For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

6: Old RotJ comic wrote:
On the Death Star, father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man. But unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon-freezing chamber of Bespin's Cloud City, this is a battle of equals. The young Jedi has grown in the interim, and if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him.

7: Star Wars Power of the Myth wrote:
"Before he can make peace with his father, Luke must prove that he is a match for him in strength and character."

8: Star Wars Art Treasures says:
Vader forces Luke to defend himself. Having completed his training as a Jedi Knight, Luke's powers now already rival his father's, but despite that he refuses to go into attack and deactivates his lightsaber.

9: Star Wars Return of the Jedi Storybook says:
Luke's powers were just as strong as his father's now, and just as deadly.

10 George Lucas Star Wars Featurette Birth of the Lightsaber says:
"And then as we go on into the next fight, it becomes more of an equal confrontation."

11: And the RotJ novel and the Ultimate Guide say "Vader pressed the attack at every turn, but Luke held back." And "Vader was shocked at Luke's "EQUAL STRENGTH TO HIS OWN" (Vader was going all out as Luke held back)

12: https://servimg.com/view/20069174/318

13: The Ultimate Star Wars Encyclopedia also says Luke surpassed Vader.
Last edited: 4 d ago.
Dark_Wing
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
1 year member
Where did you get time passing slowly on Degobah from? I don't remember that even being implied or even hinted at. Luke did not catch Vader off guard, Vader was literally looking at Luke when Luke screamed and was encouraging him to use the Dark Side so he should have been expecting it. Why the heck is it okay for a barley trained farmer to catch DARTH VADER?. That same Vader off guard and pound him before he can react and turn the fight in his favor and have that be perfectly fair for Luke but when Rey dose it to a barley trained goth boy she's now a Mary Sue? Plz get thy facts correct my friend. And stop looking at the Rey Ren fight out of context! The context: Ren was heavily injured by both Finn using the exact same lightsaber that did this https://youtu.be/Ovrx7R_P4zU and a weapon that could kill three troopers all of whom are at least peak humans who wear blaster resistant armor with one blast, holding back as staring in the novel, and was also mentally weakened cause he just killed his own father which was stated by Snoke in TLJ, and to top it all off Kylo toyed with Finn until he got injured and was holding back against Rey because he didn't want to hurt her which was stated in the novel. Rey on the other hand was bloodlusted, perfectly fresh, and literally had The Force on her side empowering her. And despite all this, Kylo still was dominating the entire fight until he had her on the cliff and when that happened he was both distracted and not expecting her to use the Dark Side on him. Rey only won because of this cheap trick and using her speed to outmaneuver Kylo which is stated in the scrip for TFA. Otherwise Kylo would have destroyed her. And you just gave another Mary Sue moment for Luke which was outflying Vader.

Now let's look at Vader's skill set: as a Jedi before the Clone War was already highly proficient in Ataru, Sorues, Jar Kai, and Shein to a point where he could match Count Dooku (a near equal to Yoda) blow for blow for a while and by the end of the Clone War was much more proficient in all those styles and had completely MASTERED Djem So according to Dooku in the RotS novel as well as being much more proficient in all those other forms he knew, and shucked using these forms, he bodied Dooku casually. Once he got burnt, he spent the next two+ decades studding The Force, meditating, and retooling his fighting style as well as adding Form 3 and 2 to his skill set and becoming near equals to Kenobi and Dooku with those forms alone. As well as having overly developed his Force abilities which were already impressive before his turn to the Dark Side. Kylo on the other hand is just a kid.
Last edited: 4 d ago.
Dark_Wing
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
1 year member
Tyrannus
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
I'd heard about time going by more slowly in Degobah whenever I asked someone how Luke was able to beat Vader. Luke got Vader on the back foot and never gave him the chance to stand his ground and recover. Even then I agree it's a bit of a stretch that only Luke could get away with. I thought you agreed Rey was a Mary Sue? I understand the background and Kylo wasn't going to be at his best but Rey had nothing on Kylo. Nothing but force potential but that doesn't help much.
Dark_Wing
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
1 year member
Where exactly? He got Luke on his back foot by being more powerful than him which is evident in the movie. Again why can Luke get away with it but Rey can't? In the span of several weeks you tend to learn a few new things. *Force potential and superior combat experience. And you're still forgetting Rey needed the Dark Side amp to beat Kylo. If Luke beating Vader is valid and Kenobi beating Anakin because of three foot dune then why can't Rey catch the half trained goth boy off guard and only beat him by catching him off balance and not letting up?
Tyrannus
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
People in real life and Quora. Vader was massively conflicted and wasn't really fighting properly. Luke was giving it his all with a decent amount of training by 2 of the best jedi. Rey had nothing. Dark side amp? Where'd she learn that? I know Kylo was weakened but Rey had nothing on him. Even a weakened Skywalker with training should prevail.
Dark_Wing
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
1 year member
Have any of those people ever provided evidence for that? I didn't think so. Didn't I just prove Luke was holding back aswell? What do you mean by "Luke had a decent amount of training?" His training with Kenobi was only for like a few hours and his training with Yoda was only for like a week so? Anakin was also trained by both Yoda and Kenobi and when he turned to the Dark Side he'd get training under Palpatine himself for over two decades, so... she learned it by being in Kylo's mind, Kylo mentioned the Force and she remembered what Mazz told her and gave herself to it. And I've already proven that Kylo's saber training was limited didn't I? Oh, and you still keep ignoring how Rey only beat a weakened Kylo via catching him off guard. In all honesty the only times Kylo showed Rey his true power were 1: in TFA when he effortlessly captures her 2: when they were wrestling over Anakin's lightsaber and 3: during they're fight in TROS where Kylo schools her despite the fact that Rey had copied his skills and had spend however much time happens between the two movies training with Leia as well as all her prior experience with melee weapons.
Tyrannus
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
Yeah don't be so quick to answer your own question. I'm sure if I did some digging i'd find some evidence for it because it does sound plausible. Luke was going all out not holding back. Since when is Anakin a she? So apparently you can suddenly just force steal knowledge form people now. OK. I'm not doubting Kylo I'm doubting Rey.
Dark_Wing
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
1 year member
How did I answer my own question? Plz go do some digging. If Luke was going all out then why did he prove he didn't want to fight? https://youtu.be/U1MnMA0TzGI 1:20 mark. I never said Anakin was a she, I said Rey got the skill by being in Ren's mind. Kylo and Rey are a unique case because of there connection and it's possible that Snoke allowed that to happen so Rey could take Kylo's place. How are you doubting Rey?
Tyrannus
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
Q: "Have any of those people ever provided evidence for that?"
A: "I didn't think so"
That was before. After he mentions Leia he throws everything he's got.
"ANAKIN was also trained by both Yoda and Kenobi and when he turned to the Dark Side he'd get training under Palpatine himself for over two decades, so... SHE learned it by being in Kylo's mind"
You made a forum dedicated to the question of Rey being a Mary Sue and I think you've mentioned her being so before. How are you defending Rey
Dark_Wing
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
1 year member
Okay, that was basically sarcasm, I like how you don't get it. Again once Luke threw everything he had at Vader the entire last part of the fight was just Vader running from Luke because he couldn't strike back at him. If Vader was holding back then why couldn't he turn the fight in his favor? I was referring to Rey when I said "she learned it from being in Kylo's mind." Think was Anakin ever in Ben's mind? I meant to put one period instead of three. Any mention of Rey being a Mary Sue from me was likely me just messing around because that seems to be the new meme to call strong female characters Mary Sues. I'm defending her because I don't think she's a Mary Sue, it's as simple as that my friend.
Tyrannus
Is Rey a Mary Sue?
No I got the sarcasm it just wasn't funny. You denied it at first. Vader didn't want to go all out. The loss of his wife and children was what caused him to turn to the dark side. Seeing Luke alive and trying to turn him back to the light was working.
The people calling Rey a Mary Sue are justified friend. They're not scared of female characters they just don't like bad characters.