How strong is goku, really?

Superman and Thor get stomped by Goku.

Thor > Superman > Goku

Nope. Goku > Thor > Superman

Goku > God?

So, you plan on actually moving on, or do you plan on conceding again?

Are you talking to me or him?

Him, not you.

You wouldn't have spoken to me or mentioned me then, if that's what you wish to do.

See I don't think he solos the whole universes that's a little ridiculous but a lot of DC and Marvel universes don't stand a chance but like Goku vs like Celestials or Literal Gods? No chance

I do agree he would be a threat but I don't think he would stand any chance against Franklin Richards, Odin, Jean Grey with any version of the Phoenix, living Tribunal, Beyonder, Dormammu, Molecule Man, White Lantern, Spectre, Trigon, Ares, Anti Monitor, and so much more.

I agree with most of those, I think Jean Grey could be an interesting one.

With which version of the Phoenix?

But those are just a few characters you know, he can beat a TON of characters in each universe.

So to say he is overrated is kind of wrong

There are a ton of characters who could beat him, some even effortlessly.

You really only named a few though? And I guess Dark Phoenix because White Phoenix wouldn't even make it close

White Phoenix of the crown >>> any other Phoenix host

https://www.superherodb.com/battle/phoenix-vs-goku/40-5858/

But the fact that she can manipulate matter and such, Goku I guess really can't do anything so I don't know if he could do anything

You didn't have to tell me that White Phoenix is strongest I just said that to you

Agreed

I thought you said that "white Phoenix wouldn't make it close" I guess I miss understood you

Yeah wouldn't make it close? Meaning that he doesn't stand a chance against it?

And regular Phoenix won't likely be going all out due to the fact that Jean is afraid of losing control

See, I disagree. A few people saying some outlandish stuff doesn't mean the character is overrated in general. Also, as for that list you gave, obviously Goku can't beat most of those people, a majority of those fights are just plain spite, like really, you felt the need to bring up The Living Tribunal? And Molecule Man? And The Beyonder? However, two of the people on your list, Franklin Richards and Odin: Goku can beat them. If speed is unequalized, Franklin's getting blitzed. And with Odin, current Goku could put up a hard fight with Blue and Blue Kaioken, and Ultra Instinct would defeat Odin.

Yeah but would they beat the beyonder?

I literally said it was unnecessary to bring up The Beyonder because obviously, Goku can't beat him. And if you paid attention, you'd see that I explicitly said that speed was UNequalized.

Except opinions are irrelevant when it comes to powerscaling.

Powerscaling is factual, and therefore transcends opinions, which are not based in fact in any way. Opinions are always irrelevant, worthless and shouldn't be used in things like this.

Dudes got aboslutely no idea what he is talking about.

Prove your own point, don't duck behind a video. At least restate the point of the video in your own words, because I'm not watching a YouTube video as your "evidence."

It ain't worth your time anyway @Tracer

Then it's your opinion, meaning it's irrelevant, because opinions have no place in versus debating or powerscaling.

It doesn't. It's an excuse that doesn't even work, as it opens the door for people to come up with literally anything they want and ignore what the author, the person who CREATED THE MEDIA IN THE FIRST PLACE, wants. And what the author wants overrides fan theories or anything similar. Word of God > everything, unless there are things explicitly shown in the media that go against the Word of God.

Dude, that's an entirely different series that has nothing to do with the current discussion. Don't change the subject.

And it has nothing to with the fact that Goku is universal, it was said six different times in the anime and even said in the manga, which is separate from the anime.

You haven't won, death of the author doesn't change the seven different times Goku has been stated universal in two different forms of media, you're just trying to make things go the way you want them because of your own bias.

And I also said Toriyama, the head writer of Dragon Ball, is responsible for both the anime and manga. So no, it doesn't.

The anime and manga are two entirely separate things. Both are equally canon. And Beerus and Goku were still stated to be going to destroy the universe in the manga as well.

That was the case for Z. Not Super. The Super manga and Super anime were written alongside each other and do their own separate things. The Super anime actually finished before the manga, it's not an adaptation. And Toriyama has main input on both, so again, author intent.

https://m.imgur.com/a/5qT3A33

Try again. Don't just click the link, copy and paste it in another tab. If that doesn't work, that's just your own ineptitude.

Oh for Primus' sake... I just did it and it worked fine.

Boy, what?! I literally gave a link with the scans. But you know what, I'll post it in a completely isolated comment so there's no possible way it could get messed up. If it doesn't work at that point, it's YOUR fault.

Because there's other people that are universal. Duh.

What type of fallacious argument is that? You're implying universal is the absolute peak of power and nothing can be beyond it. He's universal in base form and uses his other forms to make him stronger because there's still people stronger than him. Him being universal doesn't mean he no longer needs SSJ1 - SSJ3, SSG, SSGSS or UI, those just make him even stronger.

YouTube videos aren't evidence. If you want to say Goku's not universal, (for one, you'd be going against author intent) you're gonna have to disprove it yourself.

YouTube ain't evidence, you're gonna have to do the work yourself if you want to debunk it. Also, death of the author is nothing more than a ****-poor excuse to take whatever you specifically want out of the story to fit your personal views. Aka, bias. The writer's intention means more than anything the reader comes up with, and considering that Dragon Ball has had one writer throughout the entirety of canon, his word means more than anything else. Especially in cases like this, Word of God > everything else.

"Author intent doesn't exist" Uh, yeah it does. The author always has some intention in mind when they're writing the story; that's just how the human brain works. And when Akira Toriyama was writing Battle of Gods and the Beerus Saga, it was reiterated SIX TIMES that Goku and Beerus would have annihilated the universe. That very clearly shows that his intention is for them to be universal. Again, death of the author is just a way for people to cherry pick what they want to be true and ignore things.

In other words, you're just trying to ignore what the author clearly wanted so you can warp the story to say whatever you want. By that logic, I can say that Hal Jordan is stronger than all the Emotional Embodiments because he beat Krona and he only lost his fight with Parallax because he was holding back. That's what "death of the author" and ignoring author intent gets you.

Except Toriyama did say it. Six times.

Six times in the episode, some of which came from the narrator. It's very clear Toriyama's intention was for them to be universal. https://m.imgur.com/a/5qT3A33
There's also several other feats throughout the series that show Goku having universal power.

You're really retired if you think that Superman stomps him Martian Manhunter stomps him thor stomps him

If he is universal + he is darkseid level and he don't even comes close

You don't watch DB, you don't get to tell how powerful he is. And he stomps all of them at the same time.

None of those people stomp him. And kid, you don't even watch Dragon Ball, you have no goddamn idea how strong Goku is.

Dragon ballen fanboys are retired do you think Goku beats darkseid

How about you actually watch the series before you try to say how strong the characters are?

LOL! No!

Lol, yes. There's too much evidence and author intent pointed towards DBS Goku being easily universal.

Boi