Who can defeat The Flash (Barry Allen)

Zoom is not a Doctor strange enemy

@Jongensoden he said zom not zoom.

Doubt

Scarlet Witch then.

I personally disagree, but thank you for not saying he gets beat by mere Metahumans.

Flash is a meta human ofc he loses to them

Saying that some people underrate Flash is a bit of a double moral when clearly you overrate him in every comment.

Says the Thor fanboy, rich coming from you. The fact that you felt the need to downvote kind of invalidates your point. Just bc you don't like my opinion doesn't mean i overrate him.

If I disagree with your opinion, does that mean my point is wrong? I assure you that there're many more who think the same as me. And yes, I'm Thor's fan and I have no problem admitting it, but that won't make me say that Thor beats Thanos with gauntlet or even rivals Chaos King, that's very stupid.

No, it doesn't, and that's not what i'm saying. You and those people are wrong.

How can anyone be wrong about someone saying Thanos UNLIKELY would beat Barry? prove you don't overrate Flash.

Because Barry is way too fast for Thanos to handle. He can steal all of his speed and hit him with millions of imp before he can blink. He can also just phase through him and pull all his organs out. You clearly don't know the capabilities of the Flash if you think i'm overrating him.

Thanos reacted to the Silver Surfer who has outflew an incursion and flew through time on several instances (through pure speed alone). Barry isn't blitzing him THAT easily. Plus it seems as if you don't know the capabilities of Thanos considering he could use an AoE attack and then one-shot Flash, or use his telepathy (which, when used by potent telepaths has affected Barry) or warp his life force.

Barry has tricked telepathy before

@AkhilPDX Is just what was going to answer lmao, the good abilities that Flash has, apply but in his category, there's not even a way to compare him with Thanos.

Barry can also disintegrate Thanos at a molecular level or trap him in the speed force

@TheImaginator Don't think it's that simple, child

Barry would beat deathstroke and any other peak human bloodlusted or not

Is that why he already failed?

Is that why who already failed?

Flash failed. See scan

That was Wally

Getting in one stab is definitely not humiliation. That was also for the sake of the plot. Realistically Deathstroke wouldn't even see Wally's after image.

@Dark_Wing You're such a hypocrite. I've brought up multiple instances of Thor getting blitzed and being slow, but you shrug them off as PIS. If one isolated instance of Wally getting injured should count, so should all of Thor's slow displays. If you get to call all of that PIS, considering how fast Wally is, this is DEFINITELY PIS and for the sake of the plot.
By the way, Deathstroke is above peak human.

@TheImaginator: Wally is at least comparable to Barry in speed and strength.
@MrIncognito: If Slade is really as superhuman as you say (he's not, he's just a low end superhuman like Captain America or Wolverine) then how was Cass able to outmuscle him? Ask @Lord for the scan. I wasn't even being serious there. You mean the ones I've successfully slaughtered off this planet, scratch that, out of the solar system? Name me something I haven't been able to rip apart. I didn't just say they were PIS, I also acknowledge that Thor holds back which you denied so if you want to say Thor was going all out in those examples then A: prove he was and B: explain why an actual god would even try to beat someone like Daredevil or Captain America! I've already told you that so either get out of your denial or actually prove me wrong. Why is it PIS only when it's your favorite character that loses but when it's Thor it's just fine? That's hypocrisy in of its self.

If you look at Pre-Crisis Barry and Wally West Barry's feats are way better than Wally's

@Dark_wing Because you've shown one scan of such an occurrence from a Flash that isn't even Barry. I showed you several scans for Thor. Flash also holds back just as much, of not more than Thor. Someone like deathstroke getting in a stab on Flash is PIS and for plot purposes only. You aren't even using the correct Flash and even if you were that is one isolated example. If you can call over five instances of Thor being slow PIS, then i can call a singular instance of a clear plot constructive fight to be PIS. You can't have it both ways. I could also make the argument of Wally holding back.

Cass is below deathstroke Also i have more scans of deathstroke beating flash or speedsters. Lol altough Barry should beat him

Also, even if Barry does get stabbed (which he wouldn't) it's not going to take long for Barry's speed healing to kick in

Doesn't mean it's the only one I have.
Slade's done it to him again
and Batman's tagged both Flash and Kid Flash on separate occasions. And Slade has tagged Kid Flash many times ask Jongen for the scans. Those scans were all debunked so they mean nothing, you haven't debunked mine. Still waiting for you to give me something I haven't destroyed. I know I'm not using Barry but it still counts because Wally is as fast if not faster than Barry. At least make a rebuttal then we'll talk. Prove that Wally holds back because I don't ever remember him saying he does.

@TheImaginator: "he twists the sword to make sure he stays down"

Kid Flash isn't Barry. You haven't destroyed anything. All you're doing is being a hypocrite. If this counts, so does Thor's slow displays. This is a very uncommon occurence and is on the level of PIS as catwoman tagging three flashes. But you arguing Flash is street-level just because he's been tagged not even a handful of times by slower characters is like me arguing Thor is street level because mongoose or daredevil outsped him.

Agreed

Except charachters like hulk can regenerate their brain and heart

Flash could destroy him on a molecular level if he so desired.

To which he'd heal up again

You are seriously overestimating his healing. Give me an example of him doing that.

You are seriously underrate him in general.
He healed up back to normal in about 3 panels after having his skin and muscle burnt off.

I actually am realistic about his strength and power.
How does having skin and muscle burnt off compare to total molecular disintegration? That's a big and unsupported leap

I've shown before that you are way way off and you massively underestimate his power.

Just because i don't rely on a no limits fallacy as my central argument doesn't mean i underestimate his power

Literally never said anything like that. You've made false assumptions about him before. You don't have to like him but don't downplay him and make him appear weaker more and more basic than he really is.

Yeah, i'm not perfect. I've gotten some stuff wrong and i'll always take it on the chin. Hulk is a good character and is in the top ten of all time in my opinion. A very cool concept for a character. I don't like Hulk's fans very much because of the inevitable no limits fallacy, but that doesn't mean i hate the character. It's the same with you and Superman.

@Jon show me evidence of Hulk regenerating his brain after it being completely removed.

I don't think he means 'has regenerated his brain after it has been completely removed. Maybe, he is insinuating that Hulk can have his skull cut open without previous medical notice by a sword/chain saw or he can regenerate from a brain hemorrhage. Hulk may be able to regenerate from Flash's attacks since he can regenerate from having most of his skin and bones burned and more feats. However, if Flash can further react before Hulk can regenerate, he can win.

@Mr_Incognito What no limits fallacy? And how's that like me and Superman? You mean YOU and Superman?

@Tyrannus You downplay Superman, but you still respect the character. I have underestimated Hulk in the past, but I still like him as a character. Most Hulk arguments are basically that the Hulk has infinite strength because of getting angry, which means literally any character would lose to him because of it. I've seen people argue on other debating sites that Galactus and even the Living Tribunal would lose to Hulk because he'd just continue to get angry and stronger. Hulk cannot stay angry forever, therefore his strength cannot grow forever.

I've never said he would eventually beat anyone with enough anger and most Hulk fans would agree with me in that strength isn't everything.
Regarding the second part, I think it's because whenever I do vote Superman I don't really comment or when I do no one cares but when I don't it becomes controversial.

A mind controlled Pre-Crisis Barry Allen stalemated Spectre

But he didn't beat him.

Yes but neither did Spectre

I agree

?

This isn't pre-crisis

This thread doesn't specify what version of Barry, so this is a composite. Pre crisis counts

If Barry is Bloodlusted then he will defeat everyone on that list except for maybe Odin

Lol.

Everyone on that list could easily take out Barry Allen, even when he's bloodlusted. It's literally composite so Thanos would have the Infinity Gauntlet and once he does, NOTHING Flash does can have any effect on him. Ghost Rider might struggle to hit Flash but at the same time, Flash can't hurt Ghost Rider. If he does KO Johnny Blaze, Zarathos would take control and in that instance, Flash is screwed. Odin or Franklin Richards just blow up the universe Flash is in. GG. Scarlet Witch wipes him out of reality, although you could argue a speedblitz. Cosmic Immortal Hulk absolutely claps Flash with no difficulty. Rune King Thor absolutely stomps. Classic Doctor Strange is fast and haxxy enough to win (and there are other versions). You could make a good argument that Silver Surfer in his base form beats a bloodlusted Flash. Now composite Surfer? That's just unfair. Same goes for Sentry.

Ok most of the time I agree with you @Akhil, but saying that Thor, Hulk, And Scarlet Witch EASILY beat a BLOODLUSTED flash is very incorrect, pretty ignorant actually. That shows a lack of understanding of Barry's true potential. Sentry and the Surfer are fast, but that only plays into Flash's advantage by giving him more speed to steal. They both get imp and phased through a million times before they can react.

He was using composite versions. There's nothing Flash can do to Rune King Thor or Cosmic Immortal Hulk (who is essentially possessed by the One Below All).

Also, here's the thing about Sentry and Silver Surfer... even if they were to get speedblitzed, they have extremely potent healing abilities. Sentry can literally resist and heal from partial existence erasure while Silver Surfer can heal from being destroyed on the molecular level or straight up... untransmute himself. Even if Barry was to blitz, it would prove rather ineffective since they would heal. Silver Surfer also has precognition on a cosmic scale so he would know that Flash could and will try to blitz him.

Barry Allen can also process every possible future future

Wdym by "process". Do you mean that he can see everything at once?

Yes he can see every possible future

He don't Mean composite he means every version of the charachter should win

Ohhh... okay. That makes sense.

Bloodlusted Wanda.

Barry is faster, more experienced and smarter than Wally

Okay, then... how about Pre-Crisis Shazam? Or Superman? Or the Runner from Marvel?

Maybe, maybe, unlikely.

The Runner has just as good of a chance at beating Flash as Superman does.

How is the Runner unlikely? This dude would speedblitz the Flash and take him out before Flash can react. Don't you dare say speed steal.

Nobody is faster than the Flash. Speedblitzing the Flash isn't possible. Flash can react faster than an attosecond, Runner could not attack him before a reaction. What's wrong with saying speed steal? It's part of Flash's abilities and he uses it regularly. He could do it and then game over.

The Flash has been outraced before.

Show me an example. He's also outraced instant teleportation so...

Read the article and look at the picture.
https://screenrant.com/flash-faster-barry-allen-wally-west-comic/

Right, and I agree that Wally is faster. Barry scales to him and knows more about the speed force, but yes Wally is the fastest. I thought you meant some other character outraced the Flash.

I can't find anyone else yet, but at least it justifies my "The Flash has been outraced before"

Well when you word it that way, it implies that the Flash has been outraced before, meaning by a different character. It was just a one Flash outracing another Flash. That isn't really the same thing.

Well, how about here?
https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/how-the-flash-caught-godspeed-1.jpg

Godspeed is a different version of Flash. He had been siphoning off the speed force. However Barry and Wally are shown to be consistently above him in speed.

https://www.cbr.com/dc-comics-flash-marvel-heroes-defeat/

While i appreciate the website, that's just an opinion of a third party unsupported by the material.

Flash's teleportation feat is very contextual.

@Alien_X I agree with you here actually, Wally would beat Barry.

In my personal opinion (morals off)
Unlikely
Unlikely
No
Definitely not
Unlikely
Unlikely
No (Barry is one of the most morally upstanding characters, the penance stare would do little)
Doubtful
Maybe
No
Unlikely
Maybe
Maybe
No
Maybe
Possibly
Possibly
Maybe

How would Thanos, Darkseid, Trigon, Odin, Zeus, and Galactus be "maybe" or "possibly"?

Because Flash going all out is simply too fast to be hit. Any of them try to catch up, he steals all their speed. If he can blow the anti-monitor to bits, who would beat all of those characters, then he at least has a decent shot.

1) That was Pre-Crisis.
2) That was a one time feat.

Plus... want to know something that could rival or even beat the COIE version of the Anti-Monitor? It's called the Ultimate Nullifier.

Pre-crisis is canon, so it counts. Is that part of Galactus standard equipment?

Pre-Crisis is not canon, especially after Doomsday Clock since Doomsday Clock split that continuity into a different universe. Also, yes, the Ultimate Nullifier should technically be a part of Galactus' standard equipment.

Also, reality warpers can negate speed stealing so it wouldn't even matter for some characters.

Justice League #40 established that everything, all events and timelines are canon. Geoff Johns even confirmed this.
Before they would even have a chance to warp reality, they would already be speedblitzed and destroyed

I looked and found nothing. If a continuity was split into a different universe, you can't use feats because it would be a completely different version of the character from a completely different universe.

Some of them are not getting blitzed and even if they do, Flash isn't hurting Trigon or Galactus. They're abstract beings, beyond even skyfathers who by themselves, would absolutely destroy Flash. You can even make a good argument that someone like Silver Surfer or Superman wouldn't get blitzed. They obviously aren't as fast as Flash but they're also not slow enough to get blitzed, but even if they do, they're durable enough to take it. Meanwhile, characters like Doctor Strange have auto shields and he has a plethora of hax to help him out.

Look here
Before Strange's shields would have time to kick in, he'd already be dead. Same thing with Surfer and Superman. Galactus and Trigon are immensely powerful, but if Flash can destroy the anti monitor then he can destroy them.

Oh... so you were talking about Darkseid War. I hate to tell you but that has nothing to do with DC continuity being made canon. All that shows is that the true forms of the New Gods exist beyond the multiverse which we knew from Final Crisis so they'd view events that destroyed the multiverse from the outside. Flash is not a New God so this doesn't apply to him. Plus, even if we go under the assumption that it does, the Anti-Monitor feat would still be an outlier since Pre-Crisis heralds don't scale to multiversal+ levels of power (and that would be a lowball for Anti-Monitor) on a consistent basis. Odin does scale to multiversal+ and characters like Galactus or Trigon would scale much higher.

Btw, I didn't bring this up before, but it wasn't Barry who broke through Anti-Monitor's armor. It was Wally. Even then, Anti-Monitor was weakened from being previously weakened after being attacked by several other heroes. Wally also didn't actually BEAT the Anti-Monitor. He only broke his armor which could still be considered an outlier.

Death has straight-up said Doctor Strange's soul is hard to claim and he has kept up in combat with fast people before. His shields are also called "auto-shields" for a reason. He has several ways of protecting himself at all times from different attacks, whether it's using force-fields, higher dimensional magic, or gaining protection through his mystical artifacts. As for Superman and Silver Surfer... I can see Flash winning, but he isn't one-shotting them. They both have feats rivaling Flash (maybe not faster than Flash but fast enough) and they're more than durable enough to take hits from Flash.

Did you read what the article actually said? Metron describes a bunch of events and how all of them have happened. Think you should read it again. It isn't just about the new gods.

Barry scales to Wally so that's why I count it.

I agree with most of your last points but I still think before Strange would even have time to cast a spell, Flash could have already hit him a million times.

Yes, but do you know what else I read? The comic itself and after rereading the article, it proves my point right. "So, from the perspective of Metron, and as we learn a little later, likely the perspective of Anti-Monitor and possibly some of the other New Gods (including those on Apokolips), the Pre-Crisis universe happened, Crisis on Infinite Earths happened, Zero Hour happened, Infinite Crisis happened, Flashpoint happened, and it's all been one universe (or multiverse), breathing in and out, exploding, imploding, and renewing"... this is all from the perspective of Metron who should exist beyond the multiverse as told by Final Crisis, therefore, Pre-Crisis isn't canon to the normal heroes since they're bound by the multiverse.

Wally has been confirmed to be faster. By how much is questionable, especially in Rebirth, but regardless of that, it was a weakened Anti-Monitor and Wally only broke his armor.

He doesn't need to cast a spell if he's automatically protected by different forces at play. Even if Doctor Strange does get blitzed due to being a glass cannon (which he really shouldn't be since he has several speed and durability feats), the same won't apply to Thor, Silver Surfer, Sentry, Superman, Thanos, or Darkseid let alone people like Galactus or Trigon.

I don't understand how it follows that being bound by the multiverse makes pre-crisis not canon.

Yes, but Barry scales to him due to them running at equal speeds numerous times and having the same abilities. Anti monitor wasn't that weakened, but even if he was he is still universal and above Galactus and Trigon. Also, yes, it was Wally (who Barry scales to) who broke his armor. Anti monitor is basically just pure energy behind the armor, so his armor is what's taking all of the hits. Flash was able to destroy that, Universal feat.

All of the characters you've listed wouldn't have a chance of landing a hit on Barry. The only characters who MIGHT be able to get in a hit or two are Superman and Silver Surfer, but if Flash is going all out that is very minuscule.

If you were in the multiverse, the events that retconned the multiverse would lead you to get retconned with everything else.

Okay, let's say that he does. Anti-Monitor had just fought off several other heroes and Superman or Supergirl (forgot who it was) blasted a hole through his armor which would have more than likely hurt the integrity of the armor, or at the very least, gave it a weaker spot. That's when Flash ran in and destroyed his armor. Btw, just to clarify, Galactus and Trigon scale WAY higher than just universal. Even a moderately fed Galactus would be multiversal+ via scaling off of Odin and Trigon has accomplished feats such as taking over and destroying different realms and universes as well as being somewhat relative to the Phantom Stranger.

AoE attacks can do the job for you. Silver Surfer has fate hax. Thanos and Darkseid have death manipulation. Galactus has basically whatever he needs to have. For one, I'm just getting this out of the way so I don't have to talk about it... Flash isn't beating abstract tier characters and with the amount of bulls**t some skyfathers have, he's not beating Odin at his prime.

@Mr_Incognito Wonder Woman and Hulk have one of the best reaction times in comics so to say no and definitely not shows lack of knowledge on both. We're not talking about racing each other.
Shazam has been stated to have unlimited speed before meaning he can be as fast as he wants. I can't remember the same being said about Black Adam but we can assume he's probably similar.

Your opinion is invalid considering how much you parade around Hulk's reaction speed trope, despite me showing you multiple instances of street level heroes getting in hits. You also don't need to tell me i lack knowledge every time you disagree with me. That's just immature.

Agreed.

Thor 7/10 times and I'm sure about this one.

Are morals on or off?

Generally, when I am talking about vs battles, I like to think they are trying to kill each other. So morals off, at least for Thor. Not sure if Flash's morals dictate that he can't kill.

Barry has a very strict moral code so it's relevant to the discussion.

So, yeah. Morals off.

Flash could defeat superman

In my opinion Barry could beat Thor

I disagree

I agree

Who do you disagree with

I disagree Thor beats flash

Thor beats The Flash. The Speed force doesn't exist in Marvel. Thor has the ability to fly into space, cancelling Flash's speed out. If Thor tags The Flash with his Asgardian magic, The Flash is already dead. If The Flash attacks first, that won't take him down.

Not with morals off. You're assuming the fight is in Marvel when that isn't going to be the case. Flash can run on clouds and also has flown before. Plus, Flash could kill Thor before he'd have time to take off the ground. Thor can't actually Fly, he just swings and chucks his hammer while holding on to it. One hit from Thor will not kill Flash, but he won't be able to hit Flash anyway. An infinite mass punch (or a billion) would put Thor down.

Also Barry has access to the speed force no matter where he is because he once ran to the dream dimension which is outside the DC multiverse and still had his speed then