The Superhero Database Classification number, or SHDB Class, is a number that represents the overall 'power' of a character. All traits of a character are used for calculating the Classification.
What it DOESN'T mean
This doesn't mean that a higher class would always beat a lower class character. But the bigger the difference in Class is, the more obvious it is who'll win in a fight.
How is this calculated
( INT^1.3 + (STR*0.5 )^2 + (SPE*0.5)^2 + DUR^1.6 + (POW + (SPS*SPL))^2 + COM^1.8 ) ^ TIER
Super Power Score and Level
Every Super Power has a score (SPS) that is used to calculate the Class. Each Super Power also has 3 levels (SPL). The level is set when connecting that Super Power to a character. The level determines the final score, of the Super Power, being used in the calculation.
Comics Sidious > Comics Yoda
Yoda from movies > Sidious from movies
"He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born." _RotS novel
Never had Yoda faced one so strong in the dark side.
Canon: Darth Sidious proves too strong for Yoda to defeat, overwhelming him with the power of the dark side:
Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's Light and Dark Sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat.
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
Though Yoda is a tough combatant, the Emperor uses his Sith powers to release lightning bolts and hurl floating platforms at his foe. Ultimately the battle proves too much for Yoda, who barely escapes and is whisked away to safety by Senator Bail Organa.
The Jedi Master and the Sith Lord dueled in the Senate chamber, but Sidious was too strong for Yoda to defeat.
A fierce duel commenced. Yoda and Darth Sidious each used his side of the Force to try to defeat the other. But the Sith Lord's powers were too strong.
Yoda is eventually outmatched by Sidious.
Looking at the fight-
Canon: Sidious casually hurls several Senate pods at Yoda whilst simultaneously levitating the pod he stands on and several others
Canon: The Emperor incapacitates Yoda with Lightning
Canon: Palpatine knocks Yoda's lightsaber out of his grip with Lightning
Canon: Sidious fires Lightning with such force that Yoda considers walking against it to be akin to walking against hurricane winds
Canon: Yoda reaches the limits of his strength trying to bend back Palpatine's Lightning. Sidious manages to leap away and blast Yoda down onto the Senate floor:
The end came with astonishing suddenness. The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength. The shadow released its power for an instant, long enough only to whirl away through the air and alight upon one of the delegation pods as it flew past, and the creature leapt to follow—
Half a second too slow.
The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell.
He fell a long way.
I don't care what are you saying,Sidious win is comfirmed. It doesn't matter what you do to your enemy in the fight
disarm him,gain dominace etc. It matters who will win the battle in the end. As you can see Yoda was forced
to run,go to exile and wait for new hope.
You ignored how Sidious kept trying to leave and how Yoda dominated the lightsaber duel eventually disarming him. Sidious had to maintain the high ground forcing Yoda to climb to him. Even then Yoda only fell because he stood on the edge while Sidious was inside.
Also your opinion isn't canon.
Who looks more scared
that this kind of power will ragdoll him against the wall. Also Sidious disarmed Yoda with a piece of lightning and casually hurls several Senate pods at him whilst simultaneously levitating the pod he stands on and several others,but Yoda struggled with one Senate POD, it really shows that he isn't as powerful as The Emperor.
Your just cherry picking the parts that make Sidious look good when he struggled the whole time. That gif sums it up
RotS novel: "Yoda disarmed Palpatine of his lightsaber forcing him to use the senate pods to escape" implying that Yoda was a better fighter. "They were matched in terms of Force power until the lighting that Yoda was catching exploded sending them both back" implying that they're somewhat comparable in Force power, but Yoda never once used offense of powers. So I give a slight edge to Yoda in that regard. Had that fight of taken place in an open field where Yoda Could use the acrobatic footwork of form 4, then he would've won, but this is Dark Empire Palpatine who is much stronger than RotS Palpatine. RotS Yoda > RotS Palpatine
After RotS Yoda would go to Degobah and go on a spiritual journey strengthening his spiritual connection to the Force while not really upping his combative output nor defense, meanwhile Palpatine would just continue on his quest to learn more about the Dark Side growing stronger with it in the presses. RotJ Palpatine was just more active than RotJ Yoda, whatever Yoda tried Palpatine would simply be him to the punch. RotJ Palpatine > RotJ Yoda
Dark Empire has Palpatine at his peak of power. His dueling skills and power in the Force are now much higher to a point where he was said to be the most powerful Force user of that era and it took every deceased Jedi (implying Yoda was there) just to keep him in the Nether Realm of The Force. He would destroy Yoda in a confrontation shredding through his force wall and outlasting his very limited endurance, cutting through his guard, and let's just say allow him to become one with The Force. DE Palpatine >>> Yoda.
Abeloth: am I a joke to you
As I've said many times now I have given evidence why Sidious is weaker in the links I gave you. What is funny is that the answers you want are in the links but you ignore them and give a repeated excuse why you won't read them or ignore the question. If Han Solo can kill DE Sidious I think Yoda can. We both know Yoda's stronger at this point though don't we.
Anakin had advantages overs Obi-Wan and still lost which means in a fair fight Obi-Wan would beat Anakin far more easily.
Lol now that's a way to waste your time for something so pointless. It put a smile on my face though. If you want I can send you a link for the definitions for canon and EU.
Those 8 sources mean nothing to George Lucas so, yeah.
Han only killed Palpatine because Palpatine was focused on entering Anakin's body.
No it wouldn't
Disney doesn't mean anything to George Lucas either
The hell do you mean a fair fight, Vader v. Kenobi on Mustafar was entirely fair. Vader is simply a superior Force wielder, which was the entire original point of this, and you conceded that fact.
So you concede the fact that the EU takes precedence here, on this site? I don't care about anywhere else at this moment, the fact is that here, on this site that you are using, the EU takes precedence. You cannot get past that fact, being condescending isn't going to help you here, so I'd suggest you concede to the fact that here, EU > Disney.
Ignoring the fact that Lucas' statements have been retconned numerous times, both by the EU and Disney, once again, very nice. Thinking that one source is greater than eight, very nice.
If it was a fair fight then Obi-Wan wouldn't of been able to get high ground https://youtu.be/v0wVRG38IYs
Lucas' statements >>> Disney canon
Do you know what a retcon is? Disney can (and has) retcon several things from Lucas, and they've done so quite a few times already.
If he was so powerful why didn't he just kill everyone excpet Anakin Solo then?
Watch ROTS.
Disney hasn't said anything to the contrary.
Obi-Wan was emotionally conflicted while Anakin was boosted by the dark side and was fully motivated to kill Obi-Wan and still lost. I think your confusing something though. Anakin definitely had a higher medichlorian count so had the potential to surpass Obi-Wan but Obi-Wan's intense training meant he matched Anakin in that fight.
You've been the only one who's been condescending. I've been trying to keep this respectful because I thought this was just a friendly discussion. I don't believe EU takes precedence here, I believe this website uses the characters at there most strongest which tends to be EU.
When has Lucas been retconned? Did you say by Disney? I thought EU takes precedence here? Where's the consistency?
Even though Vader was explicitly portrayed as superior earlier in the movie, the fight was very clearly PIS.
And you'd be wrong about that. The EU takes precedence. That's how it's works, that's how it's always worked.
By Primus... did you not notice when in a prior comment I said BOTH the EU and Disney have retconned Lucas' statements before, or did you just ignore that part?
You can deny it all you want, the evidence shows Obi-Wan wins.
Given that you couldn't show evidence that EU takes priority over canon here it's still wrong. I know EU stats are used here if the character is stronger. Doesn't prove EU always takes priority though. That goes against it's very definition.
No I saw that but you conveniently ignored my reply when I asked for evidence that this was the case.
That wasn't even the original debate, the debate was the cold hard fact that Vader is more powerful than Kenobi, or did you forget that?
What is wrong with you, I literally gave the fact that every character is based on their EU depiction. You don't have a refute against that, and you never have. And it does prove the EU takes priority, if it didn't, the characters would be edited based on their depiction in the Disney continuity.
I literally did. The eight sources I have (which is still a greater amount than your one) come from both the EU and Disney continuities. Would you like me to break down how that's the case so you can understand it?
The only evident that I see for Obi-Wan winning against Anakin is plot convenience.
I've given you proof that the EU takes priority over canon.
Lucas said "Luke is the strongest Jedi" Daisy Riddly says "Rey is the strongest Jedi" however I could name 50 characters that would decimate Luke and Rey at the same time.
So why did he lose despite all the advantages?
How can every character be based on EU if people like Rey and Kylo Ren didn't exist in EU? You've been caught out. The original point was that you kept calling Force Ghosts Spirits when they mean 2 very different things because Sith can't become Force ghosts. Or did you forget?
Like I've already said none of them had a higher authority than Lucas. You can break them down if you want, none of them will overrule Lucas though.
You want to know how Obi-Wan beat Anakin? https://youtu.be/B7LAAtKhuYQ. https://youtu.be/xjV8H8ye8p4. https://youtu.be/tgn8Ro-2j00.
Characters who were in the EU Luke Mara Jade, Revan, Starkiller, Jaina Solo, etc are based off their EU appearances, while characters like Rey, Ahsoka, Ezra, Kylo Ren are based off their Disney canon appearance and characters that appear in both timelines like Anakin, Luke, Han, Yoda, etc or a composite of their canon and legends appearances.
George Lucas doesn't even read the EU
I have explained this numerous times, PIS. Do you understand what PIS is?
Obviously I mean every character that is not exclusively Disney, at least try not to act inept. And once again, DARTH MARR IS A FORCE GHOST, WHICH IS WHERE THIS ENTIRE CONVERSATION CAME FROM.
And you're again ignoring the fact that Lucas gets his statements retconned, both by Disney and the EU. I'm not sure if you're aware, but the author's word tends to at some point get contradicted by something else when the franchise is as old and long running as Star Wars. Oh yeah, and your entire argument is invalid by the fact that the script refers to Revenge of the Sith only, not Dark Empire where Sidious is stated and shown to have surpassed Yoda, something you have not once properly refuted.
Which link do you want me to check out first?
The PIS argument is so pathetic. Anakin lost because Obi-wan was better. PIS could also be said to be the reason why Yoda didn't mop the floor with Sidious in ROTS.
I know Darth Marr no longer counting as a force ghost is where it started, I was the one who had to remind you.
You keep saying Lucas was retconned but don't give evidence. No statements by anyone official, nothing. Therefore it's wrong. So you admit Yoda was the stronger opponent in ROTS? If you do then (forget Anakin and EU) that should bring this discussion to an end because that was the initial dispute.
Pathetic my ass, PIS is the only reason Kenobi won. If PIS was off, Vader would have utterly obliterated him, and the feats earlier in the movie support that.
And now we're right back where we started with the fact that the EU takes precedence on this site. Congratulations, you started the argument over from the beginning. Good job.
I LITERALLY DID. EIGHT STATEMENTS, several of which coming from the guidebooks, novelizations and THE PRODUCER OF THE MOVIES, all of those are official. And no, the discussion is not over, because you refuse to accept the fact that Dark Empire Sidious surpassed Yoda.
Claiming PIS is so weak. That logic can be used for pretty much any fight that doesn't go the way you want. Why did the council ask Obi-Wan not Anakin to fight Grievous? I know you have a problem with evidence but it is what it is. If Obi-Wan was clear minded and Anakin wasn't boosted, Obi-Wan would destroy without even trying.
I had to bring you back because you'd forgotten. Why is that a problem?
None of those 8 statements retconned Lucas, Lucas retconned them. Go through them all if you want and I'll tell you if any overrule Lucas. You want me to accept what was said in DE but won't look at evidence I've sent. You either have all the evidence or none of it.
You may think it's weak, it doesn't change the fact that PIS is a thing, and it happens all the time. And if things like PIS and outliers weren't taken into account, powerscaling would be all over the place. And clearly, you don't understand how PIS works as your example is not plot-driven in the slightest.
I remember exactly what the original point was, the problem is that you cannot accept the fact that the EU is what comes first here.
That's not how retcons work, something that came PRIOR cannot retcon something that came LATER. Lucas' statement literally cannot retcon the others, it is completely impossible. And by your own (faulty) logic, you have zero evidence because you refuse to accept that fact that Sidious surpassed Yoda.
PIS is a thing and in this case it wasn't. Obi-Wan is shown to be a great jedi many times so beating Anakin shouldn't be a surprise.
I don't accept EU coming first because you can't give evidence that it does and it goes against it's very definition. If you show me an official description of this website specifically using EU over canon then sure.
By that logic Snoke is the strongest character because that's the latest statement by Andy Serkis. I know your going to say "but he's just an actor, he has little authority-" your right, and no one has a higher authority than Lucas. Your contradicting yourself by saying I ignore what you said (even though I've never) but you ignore the evidence I sent you. You don't have a leg to stand on.
That is again faulty logic. Plo Koon is shown to be a great Jedi, does that mean he beats Vader on Mustafar? Shaak Ti is a great Jedi, does she beat Vader on Mustafar now? Your logic is still faulty and still ignores the fact that Anakin is portrayed as superior to Kenobi earlier in the same movie.
Oh. My. Primus. I already gave you the reasoning, every single character that is not Disney exclusive is edited based on the EU. How is it so difficult for you to understand such a simple fact? I've given the evidence that it does come first, YOU have not provided ANY evidence to the contrary. Prove that on this site, Disney comes first even though the characters are not edited based on the Disney canon, or concede the point.
Except I haven't ignored it actually, I just want you to make your own argument so you might actually be taken seriously. And yes, you have ignored what I said because you CONTINUOUSLY ignore the fact that Sidious surpassed Yoda, and always gloss over that fact to talk about something else. And your Andy Serkis example is faulty because HE IS NOT A WRITER, PRODUCER OR DIRECTOR. If you had a statement from one of them, you'd actually have a point. But you don't, because the actors don't know s**t unless they actually do their research. So again, the eight statements that came from the producer of Revenge of the Sith, writers of the official Star Wars databooks, writers of the official novelizations are all people who's word is actually relevant, and all of it retconned Lucas' single statement in the SCRIPT, which was changed numerous times by the time the final movie came out, another fact that you've been ignoring.
Neither of those jedi are shown to be great like Obi-Wan was. Who was asked to fight Grievous again?
Lol who's primus? That looked so weird. I've already caught you out when you said every single character on this website uses EU so I don't really trust what your knowledge anymore. I'll quote from the website since your afraid of links;
"As most by now know, Star Wars "Canon" is the fictional material that is considered a part of and consistent with the main universe of Star Wars. The foundation for this "Canon" universe, are the six movies. From there, other works, like TV shows, books and comics, have become "canon" to the "Canon" universe.
There are other TV shows, books, comics, and other material, that is considered "non-Canon", not a part of, the main, "Canon" universe. These works of fiction have been dubbed "Legends". Legends consists of the Expanded Universe content that has been rendered non-Canon by Disney after their acquisition of Lucasfilms".
So you admit you've looked at them. We've already agreed that Yoda wins, we're talking about other things now. I do reply about DE. I know you struggle to remember things so I'll remind you, I said Sidious also got really weak in DE too. He couldn't maintain a single body and he ended up getting shot in the back by Han Solo of all people. What a way to go. I already preemptively answered the point about Andy Serkis and you still went on a rant about him. Read everything before replying. Lucas > producer, Lucas > writer of databook, Lucas > writers of novelisation. So far none of them do. Do you have anything better? It wasn't changed because it was kept in the book and the script was shown the public with that.
Plo Koon was on his own mission when the Grievous discussion was going on, nice try though. And greatness still does not correlate to power.
That statement has nothing to do with THIS SITE, try again. Where's the proof that Disney comes first ON THIS SITE?
You are still using anti-feats, which have been debunked twice now. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Yoda couldn't keep Sidious' spirit down alone, something you have not once touched on. Do you understand what a retcon is? Because with how you're acting, I don't think you do. And you AGAIN dodged the fact that the script is not the end all be all, and that the script was changed numerous times by the time the final movie came out. You keep ignoring the things that poke holes in your already flimsy argument.
Mace suggested Obi-Wan because he was the master of form III. The perfect defence against Grievous and later Anakin.
I knew if I quoted the evidence instead of sending a link you'd still deny it. You proved me right again.
You never debunked that anti-feat once but I've debunked yours. Like I said the dead jedi weren't exactly doing anything so it wasn't a problem and Sidious blew his last chance at getting a body. The supposed most powerful force user humiliated like he was. You can't retcon someone with a higher authority than you. By your logic if you could then Andy Serkis was right when he said Snoke is the most powerful. Make your mind up. The script for the movie is as star wars as star wars gets and the point I'm referring to was the final print. Your looking for faults that don't exist
So again, greatness had nothing to do with it, your point is again faulty.
Again ON THE SITE. Do you have any evidence ON THIS SITE that relates to how we do things ON THIS SITE? You act as if we have to do things the same way everyone else does.
I debunked your anti-feats every single time. The dead Jedi not doing anything has nothing to do with anything, it doesn't change the fact that Yoda alone could not overpower Sidious' spirit. You're taking completely irrelevant things and trying to throw them into the powerscaling. And yes, as a matter of fact, you can retcon someone with higher authority than you. For example, Stan Lee once said Galactus was the strongest Marvel character. Feats, scaling and statements from other writers completely retcon that. Once again, Andy Serkis is an insignificant actor, he is not a writer, producer or anyone who actually has the authority to make claims like that. And I read the RotS script, numerous things within it were changed in the final movie, your point is still faulty.
Anakin is THE master of form 5 and form 5 > form 3.
Just copy and paste some of those claims you agree with rather than sending us links.
Wow I gave you evidence and you once again ignored it and used the old "your point is again faulty". I notice you use that when I've caught you out and you don't have a good answer.
I'm assuming EU and canon don't have different definitions here right? You couldn't give me proof and have been caught lying.
You never debunked anything because when I correct you on what you said you just ignore it or call it "faulty" again. DE never said anything about the jedi struggling to contain Sidious. They didn't have lives to live to it was no problems. Plus that example was after Sidious failed spectacularly. Doesn't help you. While Stan Lee was technically wrong there he probably said that because Galactus is seen as the most famous "strong character". Lee doesn't have nearly as much control over Marvel as Lucas did though. If an actor has less authority than producers then the writer, director and creator has more authority over everyone you mentioned.
He says while trying to argue that greatness = power. Prove that being greater than someone means you're more powerful than them, because I can name several examples, both in and out of Star Wars of that not being the case.
You must be blind, as I have numerous times given the fact that all non-Disney exclusive characters are edited based on the EU. I'll even give an example of how that's the case so you'll understand it. Anakin Skywalker was given the ability of matter manipulation due to being able to create holocrons. In the EU, and the EU only, one has to make precise alternations on the subatomic level to do such a thing. Can you find evidence of that being the case in Disney canon? If you can't, then you concede the fact that it's an EU exclusive thing, and the fact that Anakin has the power is more proof towards the fact that the characters are based on their EU counterparts, something you have not once given proper contention to.
Oh really, DE never said anything about the Jedi struggling with Sidious' spirit? Then how come that was explicitly stated to be the case in Dark Empire? I'll even quote it for you; "His power was also such that even after death, it required every single deceased Jedi Knight to keep Sidious from escaping Chaos and wreaking havoc on the Galaxy." This helps me in every way, because no matter what you say, it cannot contest the fact that Yoda alone was not enough to defeat Sidious in the end, and it required the spirits of every single dead Jedi Knight, including ones of comparable power to Yoda such as Revan and The Hero of Tython, all for Sidious alone. You're not about to warp what Stan Lee said to fit your views, he said Galactus was the strongest, and that's that. His word was retconned, and Stan Lee was the end all be all of Marvel. So again, the creator can have his word retconned, whether you like it or not.
Anakin couldn't win because Obi-Wan was better. Simple enough for you?
You called me blind even though I said this website uses characters at their strongest points which includes EU. Doesn't mean that EU takes precedence. Who's being condescending now? And you thought you were a good debater lol.
Nothing was really lost by holding him back. The dead jedi weren't doing anything. It's funny how you missed out the part where it said Anakin Solo was his last hope at getting a body though. Yoda was still able to talk to Luke later on as a force ghost so it wasn't that bad. "he said Galactus was the strongest, and that's that". OK, and Obi-Wan beat Anakin and that's that. Or are you going to try and warp that? Like I said Lee didn't have the same authority that Lucas did with star wars. Check your facts.
Feats disagree.
You. Do. Not. Understand. How. Things. Work. I already explained that characters are NOT used at their strongest, the EU takes precedence because every character that isn't Disney exclusive is edited based on their EU counterpart. Why? Because the EU is far more extensive and is complete (at least it will be until Issue #108 comes out). And considering the fact that you didn't provide evidence to support the characters not being edited based on the EU, I assume you concede the point.
Okay, at getting a body, that has nothing to do with power. You bring up all this stuff that has nothing to do with power and act like it does, do you even understand what powerscaling is, because I sincerely doubt that you do. Things like greatness, what the characters are doing and things like that have nothing to do with how strong they are. Feats, scaling and statements are what matters, and nothing else. And it's funny that you try to use that when the only reason I brought up Lee saying Galactus was the strongest was to show THAT HE WAS WRONG. Again, creator's word can be retconned, which I have continued to give evidence for and you have not given evidence towards the contrary. And you're still not acknowledging that the movie has several changes from even the final script, which destroys your entire argument that the script is the end all be all.
The only feat that matters shows Obi-Wan the victor.
If characters are not used at their strongest then DE must not count then. I did give you evidence when I gave you the quote. To put it simply canon is the new explanation while EU is the old which no longer counts. To bring it back to the original point (which you conveniently like to avoid) given that the new canon explanation says only light side users can become force ghosts, Sidious couldn't.
It is relevant because Sidious is so weak in DE. You can't conveniently ignore the bad when going over the good. He became as weak as he was strong. Like I've said Lee wasn't in the same position and Lucas. I have given evidence with Lucas and the part I'm referring to was the final part of the script. Read carefully before replying.
Okay, so by your logic, whoever wins the fight is the only important thing. So even if there's outward forces, other conditions, PIS, all that matters is who wins the fight, and they're instantly stronger because they won. Then I guess Sidious is stronger because he won the RotS fight, as Yoda fled at the end.
*facepalm* And once again, the definitions you are taking FROM OUTWARD SOURCES do not apply here. The EU comes first and foremost, I have given evidence and examples of this that are here on the site, you have not done the same. So again, Darth Marr became a Force ghost.
Sidious is weak in DE, huh? So the fact that he was stated to be the strongest Force wielder to ever live means nothing? The fact that every single dead Jedi had to team up to defeat him means nothing? You honestly just do not understand powerscaling, do you? Again, I read the final script. The movie changes several things from it. Your argument is invalidated by the fact that the script is not the end all be all.
Given that the odds were against him and he still won I can confidently say Obi-Wan would win. Officially Yoda stalemated despite all the disadvantages. He won the lightsaber duel but couldn't continue the force battle because he ran out of time.
You don't like it when I call you out on your inconsistency do you? They're not "outward sources" they're the official definition. If you like I can send you the link? I caught you lying when you brought your "evidence" so your credibility doesn't count for much now. Sith can't become force ghosts which is why (despite claiming Sidious mastered everything) couldn't.
I'm not doubting his offensive abilities, I'm doubting his defensive abilities which were so weak he couldn't stay alive for long. If he ever fought Yoda, all Yoda would have to do is prolong the fight until he keels over. They didn't change the script. It's still there. Like I've said nothing beats the script for the movie.
Yoda had zero disadvantages, first of all, second of all he didn't run out of time, he and Sidious were both flung back, and then Yoda ran away to go into exile.
You haven't called out any inconsistencies because there are none. They are outward sources because they are not here on this site. I haven't once lied, and you have no evidence supporting that I have done so. Sith can become Force ghosts, Darth Marr did so, and since you're bringing that back, it is factually stated that Sidious mastered every single Force ability.
Then do you accept the fact that DE Sidious has superior attack potency to Yoda? If you do, then the debate is over (even though your idea of how the fight would go is faulty in several ways, I won't go into that). And yes, they did change the script. Several lines in the final script were changed in the final movie, and several actions in the script were changed in the final movie. I could even give examples of changes, if you need them.
Order 66 caused a huge disturbance in the force which threw Yoda off before the fight. During the fight after realising he didn't stand a chance, Sidious kept trying to keep his distance from Yoda until his shock troopers came. He tired Yoda out with the help of gravity. Of course Yoda went into exile, where else could he go? Even if he killed Sidious he couldn't stay.
You are inconsistent. I try and remind you every time. I understand you have poor memory though. Do canon and EU have different definitions here? You did lie when you said all characters here use EU. I have to keep reminding you because I know you'll deny it later. Given that you can't prove EU overrides canon here, sith can't become force ghosts. If Sidious mastered every ability why didn't he become a force ghosts then? Or use tutaminus when Han Solo shot him?
Offensively, sure. I have no doubt Yoda would block everything Sidious threw at him though like he did in ROTS. Debate isn't over yet mate. It is if you admit that Yoda was the stronger opponent in ROTS. My idea of the fight is based on facts. Hard to believe isn't it. The part of the script I'm referring to wasn't changed like I've said. You keep looking for a way out.
Gravity is not a detrimental thing to Force wielders, not a disadvantage. Being kept at a distance is not a disadvantage to Force wielders, especially when one of the most notable Force abilities - the Force push - is long-range. The shock troopers are absolutely not a disadvantage either. And if Yoda could kill Sidious, he would be perfectly capable of destroying the clone army.
I gave evidence of that, what is wrong with you. Do you need more examples of characters having EU-exclusive abilities, proving even further that EU overrides Disney here? Once again, Darth Marr is a Force ghost, end of story. Sidious became a Force spirit because, if you paid attention to Dark Empire, you would understand that Sidious' goal is immortality IN THE PHYSICAL PLANE. Sith care about the here and now, they cannot impose their will on the galaxy as a non-corporeal ghost that cannot affect the physical plane.
So you conceded that DE Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. The entire debate was DE Sidious v. RotS Yoda because that's what this fight is. RotS Yoda v. RotS Sidious is an infinitesimal and essentially irrelevant part because the Sidious in this battle is from Dark Empire. Whether the specific part you are referring to was changed or not is irrelevant, the absolute fact is that the script is not the end all be all.
Do you not know how gravity works? This is astounding now. It's harder to send things up then is it down. Read the ROTS book (or the script). Sidious was disarmed of his lightsaber and was about to die. He had to get away. Yoda can't fight Sidious and clones while exhausted.
A character having powers used in EU doesn't suddenly mean EU take priority. Your making assumptions and pretending to be the expert again. Canon says Darth Marr couldn't become a ghost. That's the end of story. Sith do care about the physical plane which is exactly why they can't become force ghosts. Now your getting it.
No the original debate was on the ROTS battle. I'd ask you to look back but that involved clicking buttons which I know you hate. The part of the script not being changed was relevant because that's what I'm referring to. You tried to slip past that. What's more important than the script for the movie?
Do you not understand that gravity is not an issue for beings that can use the Force to jump extremely high with ease, levitate and in some cases even fly? Exhausted or not, clones are not a threat to Yoda in any way, considering that Yoda is easily a universal level threat.
Literally every character that isn't Disney exclusive has EU powers, and the reason for that is because the EU takes priority. The only person making assumptions here is you, because you have no idea how things actually work here, meanwhile I do, BECAUSE I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN HERE LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW. Also there's the fact that the creator of the site had to give people access to edit things, and he's fine with all the profiles being EU based so... your whole point is pretty much invalidated there. Disney rules don't work on an EU character, try again. Darth Marr did become a Force ghost and that is completely factual. And in The Old Republic, there's scenarios where even Emperor Valkorion, who was completely focused on the physical plane, became a Force ghost.
This entire battle is RotS Yoda v. DE Sidious, not RotS Yoda v. RotS Sidious, as you had to be told early in the debate. Once again, the script is not the end all be all, because things in the script get changed. One specific part not being changed is entirely irrelevant, because it doesn't change the fact that things in the final script get changed in the final product, ergo, it is not the end all be all. Things more important than the script, well, considering that this is a debate scenario, actual feats and powerscaling matter far more.
Gravity is always pull objects down. Gravity still exists in star wars. I'm astonished I have to tell you this. If your tired you can't fight.
Your making assumptions again. It never says EU takes priority, it just uses everything including EU. How long I've been here still isn't relevant and yet I seem to know more. Yes Disney rules don't work with EU characters meaning Darth Marr could no longer become a ghost. It's funny how your looking for other characters as examples but can't find any for Sidious. It is complementary that you look at my profile though.
You keep saying things get changed but the part I'm referring to wasn't changed. Scripts being changed is irrelevant because that part will never be changed. Your looking for excuses now. You didn't answer when I said what's more important than the script for the movie? I've got you now.
Can you find anything EU on Luke Skywalker's profile?
Force. Users. Can. Overcome. Gravity. Were you not aware of this fact, and the fact that Force users can fly/levitate, ergo overcoming gravity? So you're saying that a fatigued Yoda, a being who is capable of destroying a UNIVERSE at full power, wouldn't be capable of overpowering a few clones, who are large building level WITH weapons?
I haven't once looked at your profile, don't know where you're getting that from, you're being fallacious by saying Darth Marr, an EU character, can't become a Force ghost due to Disney's rules, which do not apply to him. And once again, every character that is not Disney exclusive is based on the EU. You want to know why that is? Because it takes priority, and it makes logical sense for it to take priority as Disney is constantly making up new rules for how the verse works while the EU's rules are clear and coherent. And again, the creator of the site is perfectly fine with every non Disney exclusive character being exclusively edited based on the EU, so that shatters your entire point, as you're not gonna overrule the site's creator.
I literally did answer that question, are you blind? I'll even quote where I answered it so you can see it. "Things more important than the script, well, considering that this is a debate scenario, actual feats and powerscaling matter far more." Did you see it this time, or do I need to repeat it again? Feats and powerscaling matter much, much more. I know you don't understand what powerscaling is, but that's just a you problem. And once again, the script is not the end all be all because it gets changed. Just because one part doesn't get changed doesn't mean the script is still the ultimate authority. And considering that parts of the Sidious/Yoda fight were changed... once again, your point is invalidated.
You don't get it. Obviously the force can be used to make things go up but it takes more effort to send things up than to send them down. This should be common sense. Yoda lost the will to fight towards the end.
How do you know how long I've been here then, or who I vote for? It's ok to be a fan. Disney rules apply to everything star wars. You said it makes sense but don't have proof for EU taking priority. Don't make assumptions. It's the other way round, because the EU content far numbers canon content, it's the EU that's more complex. You can't pretend that EU is more important just because you prefer that. This site's creator hasn't said EU takes priority over canon. Didn't you say that creators can be overruled?
And we're back with the "blind" insults which shows your losing. Where are feats shown? In the script. I did read that but I gave you the chance the correct yourself. You failed. Powerscaling can be used against you you know. Sidious barely survived his fight with Yoda. Sidious become so fragile in DE Han could kill him. Yoda > Han > DE Sidious. At least I know what it means when somethings canon or EU. The ROTS script isn't changing anymore. What your saying doesn't make any sense. That's like me saying we can't count DE because they probably changed the plot many times before it was released. You sound desperate now.
> doesn't instantly absorb the entire galaxy like Galactus or someone like him would.
Most of those Jedi masters should of been fodder to *cough cough Knightfall Anakin yet alone Vader who is supposed to be > Anakin, and he still lost if the 501 didn't show up He would have been dead meat *dead burnt meat* I got the padawan thing because if I remember one of them had a padawan braid and was acting like a teenager.
My bad with the power scaling thing.
Thanks for ignoring my other anti feats.
Considering that Force users have easily defied gravity before, I don't see how that's a major disadvantage. It's a minor inconvenience, at most. And Yoda losing the will to fight is not the same as your initial claim that he cannot fight both clones and Sidious while exhausted.
One, when someone has been on the site for a year, a symbol appears under their profile image when they comment to show such. Two, who votes for what character is shown at the bottom of every battle. I don't need to look at your profile for that. I have consistently given the proof that EU comes first, and yes, the creator of the site essentially did say so, as he is perfectly fine with the Star Wars characters being edited solely based on the EU. And creators can be overruled when there are other forces of authority, such as there being several writers in comics. Nobody here has anywhere near the level of authority that the creator of this site has, that's a false equivalence.
I wasn't using blind as an insult, so... Feats in the actual content override feats in the script, so try again. Anti-feats cannot be used in powerscaling, so try again, but correctly this time. And the script isn't changing currently because the movie is out and already has the changes from the script, you don't even have a point there, and it doesn't change the fact that the script is not, and has never been, the end all be all. And your DE example is faulty because Dark Empire is the finished product, just like how the actual movie of Revenge of the Sith is the finished product. The script is not. Once again, false equivalence.
What the hell are you even on about? Nihilus would have destroyed the universe over time, which was explicitly stated, or did you miss the over time part?
Where's your proof of them being fodder, or are you just assuming that? And that doesn't disprove Vader being universal.
I literally addressed everything because again, not RotJ Vader, and even if it was, everyone there (except Fett) would just scale to Vader, or did you miss where I said that too?
Maybe the fact that post RotS Vader is easily the second weakest version of Vader, he plowed through a lot of those "Jedi masters" only losing because he was out numbered and they all had a speed advantage against him.
No I didn't you said "anti feats can't be used in power scaling"
Still doesn't disprove Vader being universal.
Yet you still decided to bring them back up, and I addressed the fact that none of it would prevent RotJ Vader from being universal.
Okay, RotJ Vader is universal
All Sidous needed to do was pull the senate pods out and drop them on Yoda. Yoda had to catch them, spin them around and then throw them back while still concentrating. Fighting clones and Sidious at the same time while exhausted and having lost the will to fight would have been hard for anyone.
SO you look out for my green lantern symbol. Nice. You don't consistency give proof, you just say EU stats are used and when I tell you it doesn't mean it overrides canon you just ignore that and repeat the same thing. Until you can send me some official statements that explicitly say EU overrides canon I'm afraid your wrong. It's not the case with Lucas who creates, writes, directs, producers and so much more for star wars. Before he sold it, if he said something that was that.
You called me blind. That can only be an insult. Everything that happens in the movie is in the script. Do you know what a script is? I'm the one who had to tell you the script isn't changing anymore. ROTS came out like DE did. That's the finished product. Why would they change the script if the movie came out long ago. This is shocking. I used to think I was talking to someone who knew what they're talking about not a defensive fanboy. What's more important than the script for the movie? If you tell me something that happens in the script then your only helping me (again).
How are clones supposed to exhaust a universe buster, exactly?
I literally don't, it's not my fault that it shows up, everyone who votes on a battle shows up at the bottom of the page. I have constantly given proof, I've given explicit examples from the character pages themselves, and the fact that the creator of this site is okay with it is more than enough. Lucas is not the same, as there have been numerous different writers throughout Star Wars, unless you think Lucas created every single piece of media within the franchise.
If you want to take it as an insult, sure. And I only asked if you were blind, I did not actually call you blind. I don't think you understand that the actual movie differs from the script. What you're saying is that the movie is exactly the same as the script, which is not the case. Did you think I was saying the script changed after RotS came out? You call me defensive so much, yet the only person that's really been acting defensive is you. Because that's nowhere near what I said. And once again, feats and powerscaling are more important.
I've already said Yoda lost the will to fight. Yoda was already exhausted with Sidious.
You literally do. To notice my GL symbol you have to see it. It's a cool symbol isn't it? Mentioning EU stats doesn't mean it overrides canon. That's not evidence. The vote shows more people think Yoda wins. The creators must agree then. Lucas didn't create literally everything star wars but he did have a say in a lot of it and had to sign off on things.
If you genuinely thought I was actually blind then your not that smart. Resorting to insults only undermines your positions but if that's the road you want to go then sure. I won't stoop to that level though. That part of the movie never changed from the script. Saying "I'm not defensive your defensive" is typically what defensive people say. Everything you said takes place in the script. Thanks for the help.
So because Yoda didn't have the will to fight, he went from universal to large building level? Since the clones have large building level weaponry, and apparently they would have been able to take Yoda out, I guess Yoda literally became infinitely weaker.
It's literally at the bottom of the page, even when I don't care who voted what, I can still see it. The fact that EU stats are given is evidence enough to support that the characters are their EU counterparts as opposed to Disney, so EU rules should be used. That makes literally zero sense, once again, majority does not always equal correctness, and it by no means implies that the creators agree, that makes no sense whatsoever. Also it's funny you mention that, since Lucas had to approve everything that ever came out of the EU, meaning he approved when it was said in Dark Empire that Sidious was the strongest, and he approved when it took every dead Jedi to overpower Sidious' spirit.
I never once implied that you were actually blind, so... Also I really don't think you can say someone isn't that smart when you used "your" instead of "you're," as would be grammatically correct. And again, never insulted you, if you want to take it as an insult, that's a you problem. And you're missing the point that the script is not the final product, the actual movie is, you cannot use the script as the end all be all. Also no, there's no powerscaling in the script, unless you can give actual examples to support that claim.
He doesn't have unlimited stamia. That doesn't suddenly reduce his power. If Usain Bolt had just ran a marathon and then you asked him to run the 100m in record time do you think he could do it? Or is he suddenly not the fastest man anymore because he's tired.
EU is used but it doesn't overide canon. Unless you can give me an official statement on this site showing otherwise, the official definitions stand. Given that Galactus has voted Yoda your points have turned against you. Snoke has been stated as the strongest now. DE showed Sidious to be as weak as he was strong.
You literally said "are you blind". Don't try and twist it. That's an insult. Saying your instead of you're is such a minor mistake it doesn't prove intelligence. The final script literally describes in words everything that happens in the movie. Yoda>Han>Sidious. Powerscaling.
So because a being with fourth-dimensional power is tired, they can now be killed by third-dimensional beings? Even though the fourth dimension is infinitely above the third dimension?
Galactus himself has said he doesn't know the most about comics and powerscaling, so my point still stands. I haven't given proof numerous times that the EU is the main thing used, would you like more examples of the profiles using EU material more than Disney? Andy Serkis does not have the proper authority to determine that, Sidious being "as weak as he was strong" is paradoxical and illogical.
You're the one taking it as an insult, I simply asked if you were, and it clearly wasn't a completely literal question. The final script does not describe everything that happens in the movie, several lines and actions in the final script are different in the movie. Once again, you are not powerscaling correctly. By your logic, basic Clone troopers would now be stronger than Jedi Masters because they killed them. If you actually understood how powerscaling works, you would know that saying Han > Sidious is entirely fallacious, and pretty much all of Sidious' feats and scaling say Sidious is very much superior to Han. Also for your faulty example to work, you'd have to prove that Yoda is superior to Han.
So you admit Yoda's infinitely stronger. Debate's over.
I've already said there's more EU content than canon because anything before 2012 isn't canon. Disney controls what actors have to say very carefully. No one spoke out against it so Snoke's the most powerful. Sidious couldn't stay alive. He's a glass canon.
Do you honestly believe that if you went up to anyone and asked if they were blind (knowing that they weren't) that they wouldn't take it anything other than an insult? Given that your known for being short tempered, you probably meant it as an insult. The final script literally describes in words what happens in the movies. It's what actors and directors refer to. You just proved why powerscaling isn't always relevant.
That is not even close to what I said, what the hell are you on? I was very clearly referring to the Clones as third-dimensional beings. Sidious is casually fourth-dimensional, as I've explained in the past, Yoda is not infinitely superior to him.
Do I need to bring up how an EU series is getting a continuation again to show that it is very much still in effect? I'm gonna tell you again, because you don't seem to be getting it. Here, on this site, and maybe only here, EU is what matters the most. It has more content, more consistent content, and it is what all profiles that are not Disney exclusive are based on. EU rules apply to these characters, just take a look at really any Jedi Master's powers, or hell, take a look at Sidious' history page. All EU. Sidious being a glass cannon is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that his strength surpassed that of Yoda's.
As I've done that before and people didn't consider it an insult... also really, I'm short tempered? Do you have any actual evidence to support that? What the final script is doesn't change the fact that the actual movie differs from it in quite a few ways. I proved that you can't powerscale correctly, powerscaling is always relevant.
As I've said, Sidious would just wither away as he fought Yoda. No official statements showing EU over canon, just assumptions. EU is not more consistent, canon is. Do you know what a glass canon is?
I don't believe that. I noticed you called Dark_Wing an idiot somewhere. You tend to be quite rude when you don't get your way. The final script is for the final movie. That's why it's called the final script. I used powerscaling right, you just didn't like the outcome.
Assumptions, like you just assuming Disney takes precedence and giving no evidence on this site to prove such, even though I've given mountains of evidence showing otherwise? The EU is far more consistent than Disney. And yes, I know what a glass *cannon (not canon) is, it is completely irrelevant for the fact that Sidious has superior power. And if you really want to be technical, every single Force wielder is a glass cannon if they don't have their Force walls up or are off guard.
Wow, I've been here for two years and you can only find one example, clearly that means I'm always short-tempered. Unless you've got more evidence than that, your claim is pretty baseless. The movie has differences from the final script, do you not understand this fact? You did not use powerscaling correctly, you used the most basic bare-bones and incorrect logic possible, without even proving half of your claim. Even if we were to go with your incorrect use of powerscaling, you would have to prove that Yoda is superior to Han Solo, otherwise your entire point is invalid. And going by how powerscaling actually works, feats prove that Sidious is superior to both Yoda and Han Solo.
https://hobbylark.com/fandoms/Contradictions-in-the-Star-Wars-Expanded-UniverseLegends
Describe a glass canon to me? Yoda was most certainly not one.
You called my buff and I still gave evidence so you just ignore it (again). You wonder why I'm winning. Yoda's beaten a legion of clones. Many clones became stormtroopers who've given Han trouble many times. Han would later kill Sidious. If we look at feats and see how Sidous struggled against Yoda, it looks like Yoda wins.
You tried to describe me as short-tempered, yet could only find one example to support such, despite me being on this site for two years. You can't say one example applies to everything, you're gonna need more to prove your claim there. And immediately a fault in your scaling, a majority of stormtroopers are NOT clones, only the very first batch were clones, most Stormtroopers are just random citizens of the Empire. And if we look at feats, and see how Yoda alone couldn't keep Sidious' spirit in Chaos and needed the help of every single dead Jedi (some of which are comparable to Yoda such as Revan and The Hero of Tython), it looks as if Sidious is several times stronger than Yoda.
You asked for evidence, I gave it, you ignore and ask for more. What's the point if you have a history of ignoring evidence? It never said Yoda wasn't enough to contain Sidious. Nothing was lost by the dead jedi containing Sidious. There was no opportunity cost. If we look at the life of Yoda and Sidious, Yoda looks far superior.
I acknowledged your evidence, first of all, I said it was not enough. You made a claim about me as a person, yet you could only bring one example even though I've been here for two years and have posted over 13,000 comments? One example is nowhere near enough to make a blanket statement about me as a person, so again, your claim is pretty baseless. Dark Empire absolutely said Yoda wasn't enough, because it took EVERY SINGLE DEAD JEDI. So again, feats say Sidious is several times stronger than Yoda.
You asked for evidence, I gave it. You didn't specify multiples examples until after. If you want I can remind you on every comment I see you lose your temper? There was no opportunity cost to them holding him back. Your making it seem like they had lives to live and now they can't. Feats show Yoda as stronger. No one could best him in lightsaber combat, became Grand Master of the jedi, nearly killed Sidious and lived to 900 years through the use of the force. Sidious best feats was his overthrow of the Republic and the jedi order. That required intelligence not power and even then that plan was brought forward by Palagious.
Can you prove that I lose my temper on every comment? Because I notice you didn't give any more examples in your comment there. What are you even on about "opportunity cost," you're moving past the main point, being that Sidious was superior to every single dead Jedi to the point that they only overpowered him after combining their power, which very clearly shows that Sidious is stronger than Yoda. That feat alone shows that Sidious is eons ahead of Yoda in power. That is Sidious' best feat, not anything in Revenge of the Sith, not anything in Return of the Jedi, Sidious being so powerful that every single dead Jedi had to combine their power to overpower him is his best feat.
I didn't say you lose your temper on every comment I said your known for it. This debate can be counted as a second example. Is that a yes then for me to remind you next time I see it? If I give more examples you'll probably just say "is that it" or just ask for even more. It makes you look worse but sure. It was no problem holding Sidious back. He wasted his last chance so it was all good. Sidious dying makes him eons ahead of Yoda? You sure? That wasn't even a fight really, this question is about who'd win in a fight not who can contain who.