YodavsDarth Sidious

Yoda Yoda beat Sidious in the lightsaber dual and had Sidious desperately trying to keep his distance to even stand a chance against Yoda. Even with gravity on his side Sidious still wasn't able to match Yoda in the force. Yoda left because the clones were coming and was exhausted while Sidious was left clinging onto the ledge for dear life.

Yoda lol. My debate with Tracer was like the fight with Doomsday and Superman or Hulk and Sentry. It went on for so long with both opponents evenly matched but like the Hulk I edged the win.

Darth Sidious When Sidious returned in Dark Empire, he was explicitly stated to be the strongest Force wielder to ever live (this would obviously exclude cosmic beings such as The Bedlam Spirits and The Ones), and it took the spirits of every single dead Jedi (so Yoda, Mace Windu, Revan, The Hero of Tython and so many more) just to prevent Sidious' spirit from escaping Chaos, which is basically the Star Wars version of Hell.

Darth Sidious So, what's his best feat?

Darth Sidious Him losing to an inexperienced self proclaimed Jedi and his sister.

Darth Sidious Probably the fact that it took every dead Jedi to overpower his spirit.

Darth Sidious Okay, and what's Yoda's best feat?

Darth Sidious Blasting thousands of battle droids away with waves of telekinesis (seemingly with no effort), using battle meditation to turn the tides of entire battles, stalemating Palpatine ie the greatest Sith Lord ever, being considered the most powerful Jedi of the time, transcending the physical realm as a Force Ghost, defeating Dooku twice (once in AotC and and again in Yoda Dark Rendezvous), being able to sense the emotions of thousands of deaths during Order 66 _rots, been considered to be the greatest lightsaber duelist ever, living for over 900 years, turning a teenaged farm brat into the most powerful and overrated Jedi of the time who would get underly obliterated by Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker or any higher tier Jedi/Sith

Darth Sidious Stalemating Revenge of the Sith Sidious and being considered the strongest Jedi alive until the Yuuzhan Vong War, where Luke Skywalker surpassed him.

Darth Sidious How did you like my list @LordTracer?

Yoda I'd already debunked Tracer's claim of Sidous being that powerful. Long story short Sidious was too much of a glass canon

Darth Sidious You forgot that it was explicitly stated that Sidious was the strongest Force user in DE and it took every deceased Jedi just to keep his spirit from escaping Chaos, but good rundown otherwise.

Darth Sidious "Strongest Dark Side user"

Abeloth: am I a joke to you

Darth Sidious Well, of course the cosmic beings would be excluded there. Also Abeloth isn't the Dark Side, that's The Son. Abeloth is the Chaos that's the opposite of The Father's Balance.

Darth Sidious Abeloth did use the Dark Side a LOT, Luke was able to break free from her death grasp when he opened himself up to the Light Side implying that Abeloth struggled against Light Side users that were comparable in power to her.

Darth Sidious Luke isn't of comparable power to her though, he needed severe help just for an avatar. And that makes sense, there was an abundance of the Light Side during the NJO era, the Dark Side would cause Chaos, hence why Abeloth would use it.

Darth Sidious He used oneness in order to defeat her, as far as I know oneness makes the user an extension of the Light Side of The Force. Didn't the Light Side hinder Abeloth to any sort of extent, hence why Luke was able to kill her avatar? I agree with almost everything else that you said.

Yoda Let's continue replying here so it's easier.

As I've said many times now I have given evidence why Sidious is weaker in the links I gave you. What is funny is that the answers you want are in the links but you ignore them and give a repeated excuse why you won't read them or ignore the question. If Han Solo can kill DE Sidious I think Yoda can. We both know Yoda's stronger at this point though don't we.

Anakin had advantages overs Obi-Wan and still lost which means in a fair fight Obi-Wan would beat Anakin far more easily.

Lol now that's a way to waste your time for something so pointless. It put a smile on my face though. If you want I can send you a link for the definitions for canon and EU.

Those 8 sources mean nothing to George Lucas so, yeah.

Darth Sidious None of those links are official.

Han only killed Palpatine because Palpatine was focused on entering Anakin's body.

No it wouldn't

Disney doesn't mean anything to George Lucas either

Darth Sidious Wow, really, again with the anti-feats. I already debunked your use of those. And you're STILL ignoring the fact that Sidious was stated stronger than Yoda and that Yoda needed the help of every single Jedi to keep Sidious' spirit down. You still have absolutely no rebuttal to that, and if you do, personally type it out and stop dodging.

The hell do you mean a fair fight, Vader v. Kenobi on Mustafar was entirely fair. Vader is simply a superior Force wielder, which was the entire original point of this, and you conceded that fact.

So you concede the fact that the EU takes precedence here, on this site? I don't care about anywhere else at this moment, the fact is that here, on this site that you are using, the EU takes precedence. You cannot get past that fact, being condescending isn't going to help you here, so I'd suggest you concede to the fact that here, EU > Disney.

Ignoring the fact that Lucas' statements have been retconned numerous times, both by the EU and Disney, once again, very nice. Thinking that one source is greater than eight, very nice.

Darth Sidious @Lordtracer in a vs match this is a clone of Palpatine and if that clone dies Palpatine loses the fight.

If it was a fair fight then Obi-Wan wouldn't of been able to get high ground https://youtu.be/v0wVRG38IYs

Lucas' statements >>> Disney canon

Darth Sidious The hell are you on, nobody said otherwise. I'm just stating the fact that Sidious' spirit is superior to Yoda and Sidious' clone bodies are stronger than even that.

Do you know what a retcon is? Disney can (and has) retcon several things from Lucas, and they've done so quite a few times already.

Yoda Dark_Wing one of them is from the official star wars website and the rest use offical star wars books, comics and movie producers in them.
If he was so powerful why didn't he just kill everyone excpet Anakin Solo then?
Watch ROTS.
Disney hasn't said anything to the contrary.

Yoda LordTracer Absolutely with the anti-feats because you want me to believe DE Sidious is so good when he can killed in such a humiliating way. Lol check the links for why Sidious isn't stronger. Before you reply back saying "but your still ignoring-" no check the links, the answers are there. It wasn't really much effort to contain Sidious and he lost his last chance at a body so he was less than useless at that point.

Obi-Wan was emotionally conflicted while Anakin was boosted by the dark side and was fully motivated to kill Obi-Wan and still lost. I think your confusing something though. Anakin definitely had a higher medichlorian count so had the potential to surpass Obi-Wan but Obi-Wan's intense training meant he matched Anakin in that fight.

You've been the only one who's been condescending. I've been trying to keep this respectful because I thought this was just a friendly discussion. I don't believe EU takes precedence here, I believe this website uses the characters at there most strongest which tends to be EU.

When has Lucas been retconned? Did you say by Disney? I thought EU takes precedence here? Where's the consistency?

Darth Sidious Are you unable to summarize the points on your own, so you have to get other people's statements to do it for you? Unless you can contend the point yourself, I'd suggest you concede it because you aren't going to get anywhere if you can't give your own arguments. Anti-feats cannot be used, otherwise you'd have Thor being bullet level, or Hulk being weaker than a bunch of gorillas, or Yoda having to struggle to lift the weight of an X-Wing.

Even though Vader was explicitly portrayed as superior earlier in the movie, the fight was very clearly PIS.

And you'd be wrong about that. The EU takes precedence. That's how it's works, that's how it's always worked.

By Primus... did you not notice when in a prior comment I said BOTH the EU and Disney have retconned Lucas' statements before, or did you just ignore that part?

Yoda Wait what. No one summarised anything for me, it's just evidence. Evidence helps decide who's right which is probably why you don't like them. You can keep trying to avoid it as long as you want but your only helping my point. If you were so confident you were right you look but you won't because Yoda wins. Yoda never struggled and he was maybe a year away from death.

You can deny it all you want, the evidence shows Obi-Wan wins.

Given that you couldn't show evidence that EU takes priority over canon here it's still wrong. I know EU stats are used here if the character is stronger. Doesn't prove EU always takes priority though. That goes against it's very definition.

No I saw that but you conveniently ignored my reply when I asked for evidence that this was the case.

Darth Sidious I've summarized all the the evidence I have, I never once just gave you a link and said to go there. Can you not perform the same simple task? And considering the fact that Yoda didn't immediately and easily lift it, I can use that as an anti-feat via your own faulty logic.

That wasn't even the original debate, the debate was the cold hard fact that Vader is more powerful than Kenobi, or did you forget that?

What is wrong with you, I literally gave the fact that every character is based on their EU depiction. You don't have a refute against that, and you never have. And it does prove the EU takes priority, if it didn't, the characters would be edited based on their depiction in the Disney continuity.

I literally did. The eight sources I have (which is still a greater amount than your one) come from both the EU and Disney continuities. Would you like me to break down how that's the case so you can understand it?

Darth Sidious What do Thor and Hulk have to do with this debate?

The only evident that I see for Obi-Wan winning against Anakin is plot convenience.

I've given you proof that the EU takes priority over canon.

Lucas said "Luke is the strongest Jedi" Daisy Riddly says "Rey is the strongest Jedi" however I could name 50 characters that would decimate Luke and Rey at the same time.

Darth Sidious I was giving examples of why using anti-feats is utterly nonsensical, and those suited that purpose very well.

Yoda "Can you not perform the same simple task". Now that funny from the person who can't click a link. Like I said Yoda was about to die. At least he didn't die like fool and get shot in the back.

So why did he lose despite all the advantages?

How can every character be based on EU if people like Rey and Kylo Ren didn't exist in EU? You've been caught out. The original point was that you kept calling Force Ghosts Spirits when they mean 2 very different things because Sith can't become Force ghosts. Or did you forget?

Like I've already said none of them had a higher authority than Lucas. You can break them down if you want, none of them will overrule Lucas though.

Darth Sidious None of those links are official sources

You want to know how Obi-Wan beat Anakin? https://youtu.be/B7LAAtKhuYQ. https://youtu.be/xjV8H8ye8p4. https://youtu.be/tgn8Ro-2j00.

Characters who were in the EU Luke Mara Jade, Revan, Starkiller, Jaina Solo, etc are based off their EU appearances, while characters like Rey, Ahsoka, Ezra, Kylo Ren are based off their Disney canon appearance and characters that appear in both timelines like Anakin, Luke, Han, Yoda, etc or a composite of their canon and legends appearances.

George Lucas doesn't even read the EU

Darth Sidious And you still refuse to stop hiding behind other people's answers. Summarize the points, make it your own response, don't just use other people's stuff to do it for you.

I have explained this numerous times, PIS. Do you understand what PIS is?

Obviously I mean every character that is not exclusively Disney, at least try not to act inept. And once again, DARTH MARR IS A FORCE GHOST, WHICH IS WHERE THIS ENTIRE CONVERSATION CAME FROM.

And you're again ignoring the fact that Lucas gets his statements retconned, both by Disney and the EU. I'm not sure if you're aware, but the author's word tends to at some point get contradicted by something else when the franchise is as old and long running as Star Wars. Oh yeah, and your entire argument is invalid by the fact that the script refers to Revenge of the Sith only, not Dark Empire where Sidious is stated and shown to have surpassed Yoda, something you have not once properly refuted.

Yoda Dark_Wing All my links have quote from official statements. The link you sent was just an opinion video which actually helped my point. When I sent my links I made sure that they all had proof, not opinions

Darth Sidious *opinions based off of facts

Which link do you want me to check out first?

Yoda Lol your acting link I've sent you empty links. The evidence it there. It would take less time looking at the links than reading my replies. You keep saying I ignore DE even though I acknowledge it every time yet when I show you evidence you won't comment on it. I'm not going to waste my time typing something so long so that you can ignore that too. Your either too scared to look at the links or you can and you've realised your wrong. We've already sort of agreed at this point though that Yoda wins.

The PIS argument is so pathetic. Anakin lost because Obi-wan was better. PIS could also be said to be the reason why Yoda didn't mop the floor with Sidious in ROTS.

I know Darth Marr no longer counting as a force ghost is where it started, I was the one who had to remind you.

You keep saying Lucas was retconned but don't give evidence. No statements by anyone official, nothing. Therefore it's wrong. So you admit Yoda was the stronger opponent in ROTS? If you do then (forget Anakin and EU) that should bring this discussion to an end because that was the initial dispute.

Yoda Is it just me or are the comments spiting apart into 3 different sections

Yoda *Splitting apart

Darth Sidious The Force of all of us commenting is so strong that split the replies into three categories. How do we all agree that Yoda somewhat wins?

Darth Sidious Make. Your. Own. Argument. Stop hiding behind other people's. If you want it to be taken seriously, say it yourself.

Pathetic my ass, PIS is the only reason Kenobi won. If PIS was off, Vader would have utterly obliterated him, and the feats earlier in the movie support that.

And now we're right back where we started with the fact that the EU takes precedence on this site. Congratulations, you started the argument over from the beginning. Good job.

I LITERALLY DID. EIGHT STATEMENTS, several of which coming from the guidebooks, novelizations and THE PRODUCER OF THE MOVIES, all of those are official. And no, the discussion is not over, because you refuse to accept the fact that Dark Empire Sidious surpassed Yoda.

Yoda Dark_Wing I'm cool with that.

Yoda I'm not hiding the links. I sent them to you. We've already though that Yoda wins so it's fine.

Claiming PIS is so weak. That logic can be used for pretty much any fight that doesn't go the way you want. Why did the council ask Obi-Wan not Anakin to fight Grievous? I know you have a problem with evidence but it is what it is. If Obi-Wan was clear minded and Anakin wasn't boosted, Obi-Wan would destroy without even trying.

I had to bring you back because you'd forgotten. Why is that a problem?

None of those 8 statements retconned Lucas, Lucas retconned them. Go through them all if you want and I'll tell you if any overrule Lucas. You want me to accept what was said in DE but won't look at evidence I've sent. You either have all the evidence or none of it.

Darth Sidious I did not say you were hiding the links, I said you were hiding BEHIND them. Again, use comprehension. Make your own argument.

You may think it's weak, it doesn't change the fact that PIS is a thing, and it happens all the time. And if things like PIS and outliers weren't taken into account, powerscaling would be all over the place. And clearly, you don't understand how PIS works as your example is not plot-driven in the slightest.

I remember exactly what the original point was, the problem is that you cannot accept the fact that the EU is what comes first here.

That's not how retcons work, something that came PRIOR cannot retcon something that came LATER. Lucas' statement literally cannot retcon the others, it is completely impossible. And by your own (faulty) logic, you have zero evidence because you refuse to accept that fact that Sidious surpassed Yoda.

Yoda I'm not hiding behind them either. Clicking a link shouldn't be any harder than reading I would have thought. Those links are what persuaded me that Yoda wins, it looks like they've persuaded you too so I don't mind.

PIS is a thing and in this case it wasn't. Obi-Wan is shown to be a great jedi many times so beating Anakin shouldn't be a surprise.

I don't accept EU coming first because you can't give evidence that it does and it goes against it's very definition. If you show me an official description of this website specifically using EU over canon then sure.

By that logic Snoke is the strongest character because that's the latest statement by Andy Serkis. I know your going to say "but he's just an actor, he has little authority-" your right, and no one has a higher authority than Lucas. Your contradicting yourself by saying I ignore what you said (even though I've never) but you ignore the evidence I sent you. You don't have a leg to stand on.

Darth Sidious Clearly you are because you refuse to make it your own argument. Typically, people here like to formulate their own argument and don't just throw a link at somebody like; "Yep, there's my argument that somebody else made."

That is again faulty logic. Plo Koon is shown to be a great Jedi, does that mean he beats Vader on Mustafar? Shaak Ti is a great Jedi, does she beat Vader on Mustafar now? Your logic is still faulty and still ignores the fact that Anakin is portrayed as superior to Kenobi earlier in the same movie.

Oh. My. Primus. I already gave you the reasoning, every single character that is not Disney exclusive is edited based on the EU. How is it so difficult for you to understand such a simple fact? I've given the evidence that it does come first, YOU have not provided ANY evidence to the contrary. Prove that on this site, Disney comes first even though the characters are not edited based on the Disney canon, or concede the point.

Except I haven't ignored it actually, I just want you to make your own argument so you might actually be taken seriously. And yes, you have ignored what I said because you CONTINUOUSLY ignore the fact that Sidious surpassed Yoda, and always gloss over that fact to talk about something else. And your Andy Serkis example is faulty because HE IS NOT A WRITER, PRODUCER OR DIRECTOR. If you had a statement from one of them, you'd actually have a point. But you don't, because the actors don't know s**t unless they actually do their research. So again, the eight statements that came from the producer of Revenge of the Sith, writers of the official Star Wars databooks, writers of the official novelizations are all people who's word is actually relevant, and all of it retconned Lucas' single statement in the SCRIPT, which was changed numerous times by the time the final movie came out, another fact that you've been ignoring.

Yoda I've made my argument and that includes the links. You don't listen to me and you ignore the links which means you've read them and accepted your wrong or you don't want to be proven wrong. Loads of people send links. Dark_Wing has done it and so do others. Not sure why you take them as insults though. Get with the times.

Neither of those jedi are shown to be great like Obi-Wan was. Who was asked to fight Grievous again?

Lol who's primus? That looked so weird. I've already caught you out when you said every single character on this website uses EU so I don't really trust what your knowledge anymore. I'll quote from the website since your afraid of links;
"As most by now know, Star Wars "Canon" is the fictional material that is considered a part of and consistent with the main universe of Star Wars. The foundation for this "Canon" universe, are the six movies. From there, other works, like TV shows, books and comics, have become "canon" to the "Canon" universe.
There are other TV shows, books, comics, and other material, that is considered "non-Canon", not a part of, the main, "Canon" universe. These works of fiction have been dubbed "Legends". Legends consists of the Expanded Universe content that has been rendered non-Canon by Disney after their acquisition of Lucasfilms".

So you admit you've looked at them. We've already agreed that Yoda wins, we're talking about other things now. I do reply about DE. I know you struggle to remember things so I'll remind you, I said Sidious also got really weak in DE too. He couldn't maintain a single body and he ended up getting shot in the back by Han Solo of all people. What a way to go. I already preemptively answered the point about Andy Serkis and you still went on a rant about him. Read everything before replying. Lucas > producer, Lucas > writer of databook, Lucas > writers of novelisation. So far none of them do. Do you have anything better? It wasn't changed because it was kept in the book and the script was shown the public with that.

Darth Sidious I never took them as insults, what are you on? And using Dark_Wing as an example just helps my point that you get taken more seriously if you actually give the point yourself instead of just throwing someone else's argument out.

Plo Koon was on his own mission when the Grievous discussion was going on, nice try though. And greatness still does not correlate to power.

That statement has nothing to do with THIS SITE, try again. Where's the proof that Disney comes first ON THIS SITE?

You are still using anti-feats, which have been debunked twice now. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Yoda couldn't keep Sidious' spirit down alone, something you have not once touched on. Do you understand what a retcon is? Because with how you're acting, I don't think you do. And you AGAIN dodged the fact that the script is not the end all be all, and that the script was changed numerous times by the time the final movie came out. You keep ignoring the things that poke holes in your already flimsy argument.

Yoda Dark_Wing hasn't been helping me at all. He said he's neutral. You act like you speak for everyone on this website when your quite unpopular.

Mace suggested Obi-Wan because he was the master of form III. The perfect defence against Grievous and later Anakin.

I knew if I quoted the evidence instead of sending a link you'd still deny it. You proved me right again.

You never debunked that anti-feat once but I've debunked yours. Like I said the dead jedi weren't exactly doing anything so it wasn't a problem and Sidious blew his last chance at getting a body. The supposed most powerful force user humiliated like he was. You can't retcon someone with a higher authority than you. By your logic if you could then Andy Serkis was right when he said Snoke is the most powerful. Make your mind up. The script for the movie is as star wars as star wars gets and the point I'm referring to was the final print. Your looking for faults that don't exist

Darth Sidious I did not once say he was helping you, no idea where you got that from. I'm not speaking for everyone, I'm speaking from experience. And experience has shown that people get ridiculed or are not taken seriously when they don't formulate their own argument.

So again, greatness had nothing to do with it, your point is again faulty.

Again ON THE SITE. Do you have any evidence ON THIS SITE that relates to how we do things ON THIS SITE? You act as if we have to do things the same way everyone else does.

I debunked your anti-feats every single time. The dead Jedi not doing anything has nothing to do with anything, it doesn't change the fact that Yoda alone could not overpower Sidious' spirit. You're taking completely irrelevant things and trying to throw them into the powerscaling. And yes, as a matter of fact, you can retcon someone with higher authority than you. For example, Stan Lee once said Galactus was the strongest Marvel character. Feats, scaling and statements from other writers completely retcon that. Once again, Andy Serkis is an insignificant actor, he is not a writer, producer or anyone who actually has the authority to make claims like that. And I read the RotS script, numerous things within it were changed in the final movie, your point is still faulty.

Darth Sidious That's because you don't have any claims worth my helping. When I send links it's usually to a comic panel or interview that backs my argument. I never acted like I spoke for everyone here and the only reason I'm unpopular is because I'm the only user that knows that Luke Skywalker isn't beating Mace, Palpatine, Anakin, and he is most certainly not beating Yoda, another reason why I'm unpopular is because I'm one of the few users that questions high tier debaters and the only way those high tier debaters know how to deal with that is by blindly hating everything I say.

Anakin is THE master of form 5 and form 5 > form 3.

Just copy and paste some of those claims you agree with rather than sending us links.

Yoda You said I'd be taken more seriously if I didn't use Dark_Wing in my argument implying he's helping me. Your right though that "experience has shown that people get ridiculed or are not taken seriously when they don't formulate their own argument". That's probably why you don't get taken seriously.

Wow I gave you evidence and you once again ignored it and used the old "your point is again faulty". I notice you use that when I've caught you out and you don't have a good answer.

I'm assuming EU and canon don't have different definitions here right? You couldn't give me proof and have been caught lying.

You never debunked anything because when I correct you on what you said you just ignore it or call it "faulty" again. DE never said anything about the jedi struggling to contain Sidious. They didn't have lives to live to it was no problems. Plus that example was after Sidious failed spectacularly. Doesn't help you. While Stan Lee was technically wrong there he probably said that because Galactus is seen as the most famous "strong character". Lee doesn't have nearly as much control over Marvel as Lucas did though. If an actor has less authority than producers then the writer, director and creator has more authority over everyone you mentioned.

Darth Sidious You would be taking infinitely more seriously if you didn't use me and your arguments.

Darth Sidious Actually, what I said was that using Dark_Wing as an example helps my point, I did not say you were using him in your argument. So again, no idea where you got that from. And again, don't try to speak on things you don't know about, the general consensus here is that I am one of the top tier debaters here, and you know one of the reasons for that is probably the fact that I make all my own arguments, I don't just throw YouTube videos or Quora answers at people.

He says while trying to argue that greatness = power. Prove that being greater than someone means you're more powerful than them, because I can name several examples, both in and out of Star Wars of that not being the case.

You must be blind, as I have numerous times given the fact that all non-Disney exclusive characters are edited based on the EU. I'll even give an example of how that's the case so you'll understand it. Anakin Skywalker was given the ability of matter manipulation due to being able to create holocrons. In the EU, and the EU only, one has to make precise alternations on the subatomic level to do such a thing. Can you find evidence of that being the case in Disney canon? If you can't, then you concede the fact that it's an EU exclusive thing, and the fact that Anakin has the power is more proof towards the fact that the characters are based on their EU counterparts, something you have not once given proper contention to.

Oh really, DE never said anything about the Jedi struggling with Sidious' spirit? Then how come that was explicitly stated to be the case in Dark Empire? I'll even quote it for you; "His power was also such that even after death, it required every single deceased Jedi Knight to keep Sidious from escaping Chaos and wreaking havoc on the Galaxy." This helps me in every way, because no matter what you say, it cannot contest the fact that Yoda alone was not enough to defeat Sidious in the end, and it required the spirits of every single dead Jedi Knight, including ones of comparable power to Yoda such as Revan and The Hero of Tython, all for Sidious alone. You're not about to warp what Stan Lee said to fit your views, he said Galactus was the strongest, and that's that. His word was retconned, and Stan Lee was the end all be all of Marvel. So again, the creator can have his word retconned, whether you like it or not.

Yoda Now that's funny. A good debater shouldn't have to call themselves that, they should let it speak for itself. Given that you've stated false information, get overly passionate, resort to insults, doesn't know what canon and EU mean, calling things "faulty" when your losing and ignoring evidence when given to you doesn't make you a good debater at all. Sending links isn't a new phenomenon.

Anakin couldn't win because Obi-Wan was better. Simple enough for you?

You called me blind even though I said this website uses characters at their strongest points which includes EU. Doesn't mean that EU takes precedence. Who's being condescending now? And you thought you were a good debater lol.

Nothing was really lost by holding him back. The dead jedi weren't doing anything. It's funny how you missed out the part where it said Anakin Solo was his last hope at getting a body though. Yoda was still able to talk to Luke later on as a force ghost so it wasn't that bad. "he said Galactus was the strongest, and that's that". OK, and Obi-Wan beat Anakin and that's that. Or are you going to try and warp that? Like I said Lee didn't have the same authority that Lucas did with star wars. Check your facts.

Yoda Dark_Wing I don't know who your talking to. Put the name before your reply so I know

Darth Sidious Pay *clap* attention *clap* please. I did not personally call myself such, I brought reference to the fact that OTHERS have referred to me as such, correcting your incorrect (and irrelevant) claim that I am unpopular here. I've given no false information, I've backed up every claim that I've made with actual official evidence (unlike you), you've just assumed I'm getting "overly passionate" (with no evidence to support that either), I haven't once actually insulted you, I know exactly what EU and canon are, you just don't understand that EU comes first on this site, you ignore evidence all the damn time. Sending links may not be a new thing, it doesn't mean it's respectable. And it's certainly not respectable when you're just giving somebody else's argument and not defending your own claim.

Feats disagree.

You. Do. Not. Understand. How. Things. Work. I already explained that characters are NOT used at their strongest, the EU takes precedence because every character that isn't Disney exclusive is edited based on their EU counterpart. Why? Because the EU is far more extensive and is complete (at least it will be until Issue #108 comes out). And considering the fact that you didn't provide evidence to support the characters not being edited based on the EU, I assume you concede the point.

Okay, at getting a body, that has nothing to do with power. You bring up all this stuff that has nothing to do with power and act like it does, do you even understand what powerscaling is, because I sincerely doubt that you do. Things like greatness, what the characters are doing and things like that have nothing to do with how strong they are. Feats, scaling and statements are what matters, and nothing else. And it's funny that you try to use that when the only reason I brought up Lee saying Galactus was the strongest was to show THAT HE WAS WRONG. Again, creator's word can be retconned, which I have continued to give evidence for and you have not given evidence towards the contrary. And you're still not acknowledging that the movie has several changes from even the final script, which destroys your entire argument that the script is the end all be all.

Yoda Given that many people disagree with you and you tend to be in the minority I stand by my statement. You said all characters used here use EU stats, I've given evidence every time, you sound so triggered every time you reply, you called me blind, no evidence has been given proving EU takes priority (like I've said characters are used at their strongest which includes EU but doesn't mean EU takes priority) and I answer your evidence every time, You just don't like the answer. You do know if I started using your logic I would just ignore your DE statements like you ignore my evidence. I don't because I look at both sides before making a decision because that's what a good debater does. So you do find links disrespectful. If you looked at them you'd see they're not someone else arguing for Yoda, they're using official evidence and explaining it to viewers who didn't have time or didn't understand.

The only feat that matters shows Obi-Wan the victor.

If characters are not used at their strongest then DE must not count then. I did give you evidence when I gave you the quote. To put it simply canon is the new explanation while EU is the old which no longer counts. To bring it back to the original point (which you conveniently like to avoid) given that the new canon explanation says only light side users can become force ghosts, Sidious couldn't.

It is relevant because Sidious is so weak in DE. You can't conveniently ignore the bad when going over the good. He became as weak as he was strong. Like I've said Lee wasn't in the same position and Lucas. I have given evidence with Lucas and the part I'm referring to was the final part of the script. Read carefully before replying.

Darth Sidious Yes, because being in the minority instantly means your unpopular. Because that's how the world works, sure. Where's your evidence that all characters are considered to be at their absolute strongest? Because you haven't shown that, while again, I've given the evidence to support every character being based on the EU (and considering the fact that I personally know who edited every one of them, I know that to be a fact) and I even have an example of how that's the case. You haven't shown anything that contends with that fact. And once again, you're simply giving out somebody else's argument instead of making your own, as people are typically supposed to do here.

Okay, so by your logic, whoever wins the fight is the only important thing. So even if there's outward forces, other conditions, PIS, all that matters is who wins the fight, and they're instantly stronger because they won. Then I guess Sidious is stronger because he won the RotS fight, as Yoda fled at the end.

*facepalm* And once again, the definitions you are taking FROM OUTWARD SOURCES do not apply here. The EU comes first and foremost, I have given evidence and examples of this that are here on the site, you have not done the same. So again, Darth Marr became a Force ghost.

Sidious is weak in DE, huh? So the fact that he was stated to be the strongest Force wielder to ever live means nothing? The fact that every single dead Jedi had to team up to defeat him means nothing? You honestly just do not understand powerscaling, do you? Again, I read the final script. The movie changes several things from it. Your argument is invalidated by the fact that the script is not the end all be all.

Yoda Democracy. You just gave me evidence when you said Anakin had matter manipulation. A power he didn't have in canon. This website uses all of it. You haven't really given evidence, in fact your hurt your case more than you've helped yourself. Many people have sent me links and I've sent them links in situations where it's better to look than to read a reply. It's just you who takes offence to them.

Given that the odds were against him and he still won I can confidently say Obi-Wan would win. Officially Yoda stalemated despite all the disadvantages. He won the lightsaber duel but couldn't continue the force battle because he ran out of time.

You don't like it when I call you out on your inconsistency do you? They're not "outward sources" they're the official definition. If you like I can send you the link? I caught you lying when you brought your "evidence" so your credibility doesn't count for much now. Sith can't become force ghosts which is why (despite claiming Sidious mastered everything) couldn't.

I'm not doubting his offensive abilities, I'm doubting his defensive abilities which were so weak he couldn't stay alive for long. If he ever fought Yoda, all Yoda would have to do is prolong the fight until he keels over. They didn't change the script. It's still there. Like I've said nothing beats the script for the movie.

Darth Sidious So are minority races are immediately unpopular because they're minorities? Because you seem to think that minority = unpopular. Anakin having matter manipulation on his profile very much supports the fact that his profile is based on the EU. You have not been on this site very long, how are you telling me how things go here? And because of you not being here long, you're unaware of the fact that people get ridiculed for just giving YouTube videos as "evidence."

Yoda had zero disadvantages, first of all, second of all he didn't run out of time, he and Sidious were both flung back, and then Yoda ran away to go into exile.

You haven't called out any inconsistencies because there are none. They are outward sources because they are not here on this site. I haven't once lied, and you have no evidence supporting that I have done so. Sith can become Force ghosts, Darth Marr did so, and since you're bringing that back, it is factually stated that Sidious mastered every single Force ability.

Then do you accept the fact that DE Sidious has superior attack potency to Yoda? If you do, then the debate is over (even though your idea of how the fight would go is faulty in several ways, I won't go into that). And yes, they did change the script. Several lines in the final script were changed in the final movie, and several actions in the script were changed in the final movie. I could even give examples of changes, if you need them.

Yoda Don't act clueless you know what I meant. What's minority races got to do with democracy? It's not exclusively EU. I don't need to be here long to know what canon and EU means. No one's ridiculed me for giving a youtube video which talks about official evidence. Dark_Wing sent me a video that didn't have any evidence in it. Instead of ignoring it I actually looked at it then replied back.

Order 66 caused a huge disturbance in the force which threw Yoda off before the fight. During the fight after realising he didn't stand a chance, Sidious kept trying to keep his distance from Yoda until his shock troopers came. He tired Yoda out with the help of gravity. Of course Yoda went into exile, where else could he go? Even if he killed Sidious he couldn't stay.

You are inconsistent. I try and remind you every time. I understand you have poor memory though. Do canon and EU have different definitions here? You did lie when you said all characters here use EU. I have to keep reminding you because I know you'll deny it later. Given that you can't prove EU overrides canon here, sith can't become force ghosts. If Sidious mastered every ability why didn't he become a force ghosts then? Or use tutaminus when Han Solo shot him?

Offensively, sure. I have no doubt Yoda would block everything Sidious threw at him though like he did in ROTS. Debate isn't over yet mate. It is if you admit that Yoda was the stronger opponent in ROTS. My idea of the fight is based on facts. Hard to believe isn't it. The part of the script I'm referring to wasn't changed like I've said. You keep looking for a way out.

Darth Sidious You're the one who said being in the minority makes you unpopular, so I guess all minority races are unpopular now. Literally nobody said it was exclusively EU, the fact is that EU comes before Disney does. Again, you have not been here long and you've debated literally nobody except Dark_Wing and I, you can't use that to say people don't get ridiculed for that (because they very much do). You should be perfectly capable of forming your own argument from the evidence you have instead of essentially just telling somebody else to do it for you. Cause that's basically what you're doing.

Gravity is not a detrimental thing to Force wielders, not a disadvantage. Being kept at a distance is not a disadvantage to Force wielders, especially when one of the most notable Force abilities - the Force push - is long-range. The shock troopers are absolutely not a disadvantage either. And if Yoda could kill Sidious, he would be perfectly capable of destroying the clone army.

I gave evidence of that, what is wrong with you. Do you need more examples of characters having EU-exclusive abilities, proving even further that EU overrides Disney here? Once again, Darth Marr is a Force ghost, end of story. Sidious became a Force spirit because, if you paid attention to Dark Empire, you would understand that Sidious' goal is immortality IN THE PHYSICAL PLANE. Sith care about the here and now, they cannot impose their will on the galaxy as a non-corporeal ghost that cannot affect the physical plane.

So you conceded that DE Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. The entire debate was DE Sidious v. RotS Yoda because that's what this fight is. RotS Yoda v. RotS Sidious is an infinitesimal and essentially irrelevant part because the Sidious in this battle is from Dark Empire. Whether the specific part you are referring to was changed or not is irrelevant, the absolute fact is that the script is not the end all be all.

Yoda You conveniently ignored the part where I said democracy doesn't have to do with minority races. You did say all characters use EU stats at one point until I corrected you. I've spoken to many people here actually. You keep acting like on expert on things you don't know. Your literally the only person I know who gets offended by links. No ones arguing for me. You don't have a leg to stand on because you claim you haven't seen it.

Do you not know how gravity works? This is astounding now. It's harder to send things up then is it down. Read the ROTS book (or the script). Sidious was disarmed of his lightsaber and was about to die. He had to get away. Yoda can't fight Sidious and clones while exhausted.

A character having powers used in EU doesn't suddenly mean EU take priority. Your making assumptions and pretending to be the expert again. Canon says Darth Marr couldn't become a ghost. That's the end of story. Sith do care about the physical plane which is exactly why they can't become force ghosts. Now your getting it.

No the original debate was on the ROTS battle. I'd ask you to look back but that involved clicking buttons which I know you hate. The part of the script not being changed was relevant because that's what I'm referring to. You tried to slip past that. What's more important than the script for the movie?

Darth Sidious You conveniently ignored the part where all you said was that minority = unpopular. And yes, literally every character EU stats, logic would dictate that only applies to characters that aren't Disney exclusive, or can you not use context clues and need to be explicitly told that? I do not get "offended" by links, I'm merely telling you not to use other people's arguments. If you were to link, say a scan, or a clip from actual official material like a scene from one of the movies, that would be fine. Just throwing out somebody else's argument instead of making one yourself is not.

Do you not understand that gravity is not an issue for beings that can use the Force to jump extremely high with ease, levitate and in some cases even fly? Exhausted or not, clones are not a threat to Yoda in any way, considering that Yoda is easily a universal level threat.

Literally every character that isn't Disney exclusive has EU powers, and the reason for that is because the EU takes priority. The only person making assumptions here is you, because you have no idea how things actually work here, meanwhile I do, BECAUSE I'VE ACTUALLY BEEN HERE LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW. Also there's the fact that the creator of the site had to give people access to edit things, and he's fine with all the profiles being EU based so... your whole point is pretty much invalidated there. Disney rules don't work on an EU character, try again. Darth Marr did become a Force ghost and that is completely factual. And in The Old Republic, there's scenarios where even Emperor Valkorion, who was completely focused on the physical plane, became a Force ghost.

This entire battle is RotS Yoda v. DE Sidious, not RotS Yoda v. RotS Sidious, as you had to be told early in the debate. Once again, the script is not the end all be all, because things in the script get changed. One specific part not being changed is entirely irrelevant, because it doesn't change the fact that things in the final script get changed in the final product, ergo, it is not the end all be all. Things more important than the script, well, considering that this is a debate scenario, actual feats and powerscaling matter far more.

Yoda I never said minorities = unpopular. That's why I mentioned democracy. Rey and Kylo Ren doesn't use EU stats. Wrong again. You can't say then that all characters use EU. If your wrong here your probably wrong in other things too. Like I've said, no one's arguing for me. By not acknowledging the evidence you've conceded defeat.

Gravity is always pull objects down. Gravity still exists in star wars. I'm astonished I have to tell you this. If your tired you can't fight.

Your making assumptions again. It never says EU takes priority, it just uses everything including EU. How long I've been here still isn't relevant and yet I seem to know more. Yes Disney rules don't work with EU characters meaning Darth Marr could no longer become a ghost. It's funny how your looking for other characters as examples but can't find any for Sidious. It is complementary that you look at my profile though.

You keep saying things get changed but the part I'm referring to wasn't changed. Scripts being changed is irrelevant because that part will never be changed. Your looking for excuses now. You didn't answer when I said what's more important than the script for the movie? I've got you now.

Darth Sidious Rey and Ren don't use EU stats but Jacen and Jaina solo are on this site and they use legends stats. Just except it @Tyrannus we gave you everything EU is just as relevant here as Disney canon.

Can you find anything EU on Luke Skywalker's profile?

Darth Sidious You literally said I'm unpopular because I've voted in the minority. I love how you completely ignored the fact where I said common sense would dictate exclusively Disney characters wouldn't be EU based. And again, faulty logic, being incorrect in one thing (and I'm not even incorrect) doesn't immediately make someone incorrect in other things, that's fallacious. By that logic, since you're incorrect in voting Galactus over Eternity, you're incorrect in voting Yoda over Sidious as well, GG. And once again, you are using somebody else's argument. That is essentially the same as having somebody else argue for you. So I'm gonna ask you again to make your own argument.

Force. Users. Can. Overcome. Gravity. Were you not aware of this fact, and the fact that Force users can fly/levitate, ergo overcoming gravity? So you're saying that a fatigued Yoda, a being who is capable of destroying a UNIVERSE at full power, wouldn't be capable of overpowering a few clones, who are large building level WITH weapons?

I haven't once looked at your profile, don't know where you're getting that from, you're being fallacious by saying Darth Marr, an EU character, can't become a Force ghost due to Disney's rules, which do not apply to him. And once again, every character that is not Disney exclusive is based on the EU. You want to know why that is? Because it takes priority, and it makes logical sense for it to take priority as Disney is constantly making up new rules for how the verse works while the EU's rules are clear and coherent. And again, the creator of the site is perfectly fine with every non Disney exclusive character being exclusively edited based on the EU, so that shatters your entire point, as you're not gonna overrule the site's creator.

I literally did answer that question, are you blind? I'll even quote where I answered it so you can see it. "Things more important than the script, well, considering that this is a debate scenario, actual feats and powerscaling matter far more." Did you see it this time, or do I need to repeat it again? Feats and powerscaling matter much, much more. I know you don't understand what powerscaling is, but that's just a you problem. And once again, the script is not the end all be all because it gets changed. Just because one part doesn't get changed doesn't mean the script is still the ultimate authority. And considering that parts of the Sidious/Yoda fight were changed... once again, your point is invalidated.

Darth Sidious Yoda is not universal, he matched Palpatine who is multi galaxy level when scaled, therefore Yoda is multi galaxy level.

Darth Sidious Sidious is universal. You're probably thinking of Vader, who is multi-galactic (at least).

Darth Sidious How is Palpatine universal but Vader who is 80 precent his power is multi galaxy level?

Darth Sidious Because 80% of a universe would be multiple galaxies...?

Darth Sidious But multi galactic is third dimensional while universal is forth dimensional by that logic Palpatine should be literally infinitely stronger than Vader which he obviously is not because Vader can break his Force wall _Darth Vader and the 9th assassin #1

Darth Sidious Eh, Vader would just be universal then.

Darth Sidious If Vader was universal then how is he outperformed by rouge padawans _Star Wars: Purge, how is he matched by Galen Marek _Star Wars: The Force Unleashed, how is He outmatched by pre Empire Strikes Back Luke _Splinter of the Mind's eye, how was he nearly defeated by an imperfect clone of Darth Maul _Star Wars: Tales #9. Boba Fett being able to hold his own against bloodlusted Vader _Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire. Unless you're saying everyone I just mentioned was universal+ please admit that neither Vader nor the emperor are universal, unless you can disprove what I said.

Darth Sidious It's completely factual that they're universal, first of all, as they scale to Darth Nihilus being a universe buster just by existing. And all those Vader anti-feats aren't RotJ Vader. Also in Star Wars: Purge, Vader was holding his own against several Jedi Masters at once, I don't know where you got Padawans from. Oh, and even if those were RotJ Vader feats, the people that could contend with him would just scale to him (except Fett), none of them would just devalue Vader's power, that's not how feats or scaling work.

Yoda You said minority races which has nothing to do with this. If it's common sense, why did you claim all characters use EU stats? Given that you've been wrong and inconsistent many times and the fact that you refuse to acknowledge evidence makes it look like your wrong. I changed my vote to Eternity because I've seen the evidence and have been persuaded. You just choose 1 character and stick with that regardless of being disproved. I guess your too proud to accept when your wrong.

You don't get it. Obviously the force can be used to make things go up but it takes more effort to send things up than to send them down. This should be common sense. Yoda lost the will to fight towards the end.

How do you know how long I've been here then, or who I vote for? It's ok to be a fan. Disney rules apply to everything star wars. You said it makes sense but don't have proof for EU taking priority. Don't make assumptions. It's the other way round, because the EU content far numbers canon content, it's the EU that's more complex. You can't pretend that EU is more important just because you prefer that. This site's creator hasn't said EU takes priority over canon. Didn't you say that creators can be overruled?

And we're back with the "blind" insults which shows your losing. Where are feats shown? In the script. I did read that but I gave you the chance the correct yourself. You failed. Powerscaling can be used against you you know. Sidious barely survived his fight with Yoda. Sidious become so fragile in DE Han could kill him. Yoda > Han > DE Sidious. At least I know what it means when somethings canon or EU. The ROTS script isn't changing anymore. What your saying doesn't make any sense. That's like me saying we can't count DE because they probably changed the plot many times before it was released. You sound desperate now.

Darth Sidious "Nihilus is universal and has passive life drain in which only the most Jedi powerful can resist"
> doesn't instantly absorb the entire galaxy like Galactus or someone like him would.

Most of those Jedi masters should of been fodder to *cough cough Knightfall Anakin yet alone Vader who is supposed to be > Anakin, and he still lost if the 501 didn't show up He would have been dead meat *dead burnt meat* I got the padawan thing because if I remember one of them had a padawan braid and was acting like a teenager.
My bad with the power scaling thing.

Thanks for ignoring my other anti feats.

Darth Sidious You haven't proven anything wrong, in fact, you conceded that DE Sidious is stronger than Yoda, which was the entire point that I cared about. And I said every character has EU stats because it's common sense that I wouldn't be referring to characters that never appeared in the EU.

Considering that Force users have easily defied gravity before, I don't see how that's a major disadvantage. It's a minor inconvenience, at most. And Yoda losing the will to fight is not the same as your initial claim that he cannot fight both clones and Sidious while exhausted.

One, when someone has been on the site for a year, a symbol appears under their profile image when they comment to show such. Two, who votes for what character is shown at the bottom of every battle. I don't need to look at your profile for that. I have consistently given the proof that EU comes first, and yes, the creator of the site essentially did say so, as he is perfectly fine with the Star Wars characters being edited solely based on the EU. And creators can be overruled when there are other forces of authority, such as there being several writers in comics. Nobody here has anywhere near the level of authority that the creator of this site has, that's a false equivalence.

I wasn't using blind as an insult, so... Feats in the actual content override feats in the script, so try again. Anti-feats cannot be used in powerscaling, so try again, but correctly this time. And the script isn't changing currently because the movie is out and already has the changes from the script, you don't even have a point there, and it doesn't change the fact that the script is not, and has never been, the end all be all. And your DE example is faulty because Dark Empire is the finished product, just like how the actual movie of Revenge of the Sith is the finished product. The script is not. Once again, false equivalence.

Darth Sidious @Dark
What the hell are you even on about? Nihilus would have destroyed the universe over time, which was explicitly stated, or did you miss the over time part?

Where's your proof of them being fodder, or are you just assuming that? And that doesn't disprove Vader being universal.

I literally addressed everything because again, not RotJ Vader, and even if it was, everyone there (except Fett) would just scale to Vader, or did you miss where I said that too?

Darth Sidious He existed for well over a thousand years passively draining everyone he came across, yet he couldn't absorb all the life in one galaxy despite being universal.

Maybe the fact that post RotS Vader is easily the second weakest version of Vader, he plowed through a lot of those "Jedi masters" only losing because he was out numbered and they all had a speed advantage against him.

No I didn't you said "anti feats can't be used in power scaling"

Darth Sidious First of all, the word galaxy is used interchangeably with the word universe in Star Wars. Second of all, once again, OVER TIME. Nothing said he was just going to snap the universe away, he was going to do it over time.

Still doesn't disprove Vader being universal.

Yet you still decided to bring them back up, and I addressed the fact that none of it would prevent RotJ Vader from being universal.

Darth Sidious By that logic I would be city level if I set out with a sledgehammer and destroyed every building in a city overtime.

Okay, RotJ Vader is universal

Yoda I never once said DE Sidious is stronger than Yoda. I said Sidious could probably use the force more offensively than Yoda but Yoda would easily repel that and still kill Sidious. You conceded defeat when you couldn't accept the evidence I sent. It's at that point you lost.

All Sidous needed to do was pull the senate pods out and drop them on Yoda. Yoda had to catch them, spin them around and then throw them back while still concentrating. Fighting clones and Sidious at the same time while exhausted and having lost the will to fight would have been hard for anyone.

SO you look out for my green lantern symbol. Nice. You don't consistency give proof, you just say EU stats are used and when I tell you it doesn't mean it overrides canon you just ignore that and repeat the same thing. Until you can send me some official statements that explicitly say EU overrides canon I'm afraid your wrong. It's not the case with Lucas who creates, writes, directs, producers and so much more for star wars. Before he sold it, if he said something that was that.

You called me blind. That can only be an insult. Everything that happens in the movie is in the script. Do you know what a script is? I'm the one who had to tell you the script isn't changing anymore. ROTS came out like DE did. That's the finished product. Why would they change the script if the movie came out long ago. This is shocking. I used to think I was talking to someone who knew what they're talking about not a defensive fanboy. What's more important than the script for the movie? If you tell me something that happens in the script then your only helping me (again).

Darth Sidious You literally did, you said Sidious has the advantage in offensive output. That means he is more powerful. And no, that's not how defeat is administered, try again (and I literally did look at them, doesn't change the fact that DE Sidious surpassed Yoda).

How are clones supposed to exhaust a universe buster, exactly?

I literally don't, it's not my fault that it shows up, everyone who votes on a battle shows up at the bottom of the page. I have constantly given proof, I've given explicit examples from the character pages themselves, and the fact that the creator of this site is okay with it is more than enough. Lucas is not the same, as there have been numerous different writers throughout Star Wars, unless you think Lucas created every single piece of media within the franchise.

If you want to take it as an insult, sure. And I only asked if you were blind, I did not actually call you blind. I don't think you understand that the actual movie differs from the script. What you're saying is that the movie is exactly the same as the script, which is not the case. Did you think I was saying the script changed after RotS came out? You call me defensive so much, yet the only person that's really been acting defensive is you. Because that's nowhere near what I said. And once again, feats and powerscaling are more important.

Yoda You conveniently ignored the part where I said Yoda would repel everything Sidious threw at him. What I said makes sense anyway because the dark side is more offensive anyway. I gave evidence, you couldn't counter it, I win.

I've already said Yoda lost the will to fight. Yoda was already exhausted with Sidious.

You literally do. To notice my GL symbol you have to see it. It's a cool symbol isn't it? Mentioning EU stats doesn't mean it overrides canon. That's not evidence. The vote shows more people think Yoda wins. The creators must agree then. Lucas didn't create literally everything star wars but he did have a say in a lot of it and had to sign off on things.

If you genuinely thought I was actually blind then your not that smart. Resorting to insults only undermines your positions but if that's the road you want to go then sure. I won't stoop to that level though. That part of the movie never changed from the script. Saying "I'm not defensive your defensive" is typically what defensive people say. Everything you said takes place in the script. Thanks for the help.

Darth Sidious Dang, this is a comment with the biggest thread of replies I've ever seen so far on this site.

Darth Sidious I didn't mention it because it doesn't matter, you already said Sidious has the advantage in offensive capability, meaning he is more powerful. That's all that matters, my entire point was getting you to realize the fact that DE Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. As far as I'm concerned, the debate is now over, since that's all I cared about.

So because Yoda didn't have the will to fight, he went from universal to large building level? Since the clones have large building level weaponry, and apparently they would have been able to take Yoda out, I guess Yoda literally became infinitely weaker.

It's literally at the bottom of the page, even when I don't care who voted what, I can still see it. The fact that EU stats are given is evidence enough to support that the characters are their EU counterparts as opposed to Disney, so EU rules should be used. That makes literally zero sense, once again, majority does not always equal correctness, and it by no means implies that the creators agree, that makes no sense whatsoever. Also it's funny you mention that, since Lucas had to approve everything that ever came out of the EU, meaning he approved when it was said in Dark Empire that Sidious was the strongest, and he approved when it took every dead Jedi to overpower Sidious' spirit.

I never once implied that you were actually blind, so... Also I really don't think you can say someone isn't that smart when you used "your" instead of "you're," as would be grammatically correct. And again, never insulted you, if you want to take it as an insult, that's a you problem. And you're missing the point that the script is not the final product, the actual movie is, you cannot use the script as the end all be all. Also no, there's no powerscaling in the script, unless you can give actual examples to support that claim.

Yoda The light side isn't offensive anyway yet many jedi have defeated sith. Being more offensive doesn't mean your stronger. Yoda would just repel everything SIdious threw at him until Sidious eventually withers away.

He doesn't have unlimited stamia. That doesn't suddenly reduce his power. If Usain Bolt had just ran a marathon and then you asked him to run the 100m in record time do you think he could do it? Or is he suddenly not the fastest man anymore because he's tired.

EU is used but it doesn't overide canon. Unless you can give me an official statement on this site showing otherwise, the official definitions stand. Given that Galactus has voted Yoda your points have turned against you. Snoke has been stated as the strongest now. DE showed Sidious to be as weak as he was strong.

You literally said "are you blind". Don't try and twist it. That's an insult. Saying your instead of you're is such a minor mistake it doesn't prove intelligence. The final script literally describes in words everything that happens in the movie. Yoda>Han>Sidious. Powerscaling.

Darth Sidious Having superior offensive power means you have superior attack potency, which means you are stronger. That's simple logic.

So because a being with fourth-dimensional power is tired, they can now be killed by third-dimensional beings? Even though the fourth dimension is infinitely above the third dimension?

Galactus himself has said he doesn't know the most about comics and powerscaling, so my point still stands. I haven't given proof numerous times that the EU is the main thing used, would you like more examples of the profiles using EU material more than Disney? Andy Serkis does not have the proper authority to determine that, Sidious being "as weak as he was strong" is paradoxical and illogical.

You're the one taking it as an insult, I simply asked if you were, and it clearly wasn't a completely literal question. The final script does not describe everything that happens in the movie, several lines and actions in the final script are different in the movie. Once again, you are not powerscaling correctly. By your logic, basic Clone troopers would now be stronger than Jedi Masters because they killed them. If you actually understood how powerscaling works, you would know that saying Han > Sidious is entirely fallacious, and pretty much all of Sidious' feats and scaling say Sidious is very much superior to Han. Also for your faulty example to work, you'd have to prove that Yoda is superior to Han.

Yoda Having a good defence is just as important. Yoda would just absorb anything Sidious used against him and throw it back. Sidious couldn't even stay alive.

So you admit Yoda's infinitely stronger. Debate's over.

I've already said there's more EU content than canon because anything before 2012 isn't canon. Disney controls what actors have to say very carefully. No one spoke out against it so Snoke's the most powerful. Sidious couldn't stay alive. He's a glass canon.

Do you honestly believe that if you went up to anyone and asked if they were blind (knowing that they weren't) that they wouldn't take it anything other than an insult? Given that your known for being short tempered, you probably meant it as an insult. The final script literally describes in words what happens in the movies. It's what actors and directors refer to. You just proved why powerscaling isn't always relevant.

Darth Sidious Defense is not attacking power. Having a superior defense does not mean superior strength. Superior OFFENSE means superior strength.

That is not even close to what I said, what the hell are you on? I was very clearly referring to the Clones as third-dimensional beings. Sidious is casually fourth-dimensional, as I've explained in the past, Yoda is not infinitely superior to him.

Do I need to bring up how an EU series is getting a continuation again to show that it is very much still in effect? I'm gonna tell you again, because you don't seem to be getting it. Here, on this site, and maybe only here, EU is what matters the most. It has more content, more consistent content, and it is what all profiles that are not Disney exclusive are based on. EU rules apply to these characters, just take a look at really any Jedi Master's powers, or hell, take a look at Sidious' history page. All EU. Sidious being a glass cannon is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that his strength surpassed that of Yoda's.

As I've done that before and people didn't consider it an insult... also really, I'm short tempered? Do you have any actual evidence to support that? What the final script is doesn't change the fact that the actual movie differs from it in quite a few ways. I proved that you can't powerscale correctly, powerscaling is always relevant.

Yoda So why is it that Sidious couldn't get his body to last long and ends up getting killed by Han while Yoda was able to prolong is life for as long as he wanted until eventually becoming a force ghost. Who looks stronger?

As I've said, Sidious would just wither away as he fought Yoda. No official statements showing EU over canon, just assumptions. EU is not more consistent, canon is. Do you know what a glass canon is?

I don't believe that. I noticed you called Dark_Wing an idiot somewhere. You tend to be quite rude when you don't get your way. The final script is for the final movie. That's why it's called the final script. I used powerscaling right, you just didn't like the outcome.

Darth Sidious Sidious, because he has the higher attack potency, meaning he can destroy more, meaning he is more powerful. It's quite simple.

Assumptions, like you just assuming Disney takes precedence and giving no evidence on this site to prove such, even though I've given mountains of evidence showing otherwise? The EU is far more consistent than Disney. And yes, I know what a glass *cannon (not canon) is, it is completely irrelevant for the fact that Sidious has superior power. And if you really want to be technical, every single Force wielder is a glass cannon if they don't have their Force walls up or are off guard.

Wow, I've been here for two years and you can only find one example, clearly that means I'm always short-tempered. Unless you've got more evidence than that, your claim is pretty baseless. The movie has differences from the final script, do you not understand this fact? You did not use powerscaling correctly, you used the most basic bare-bones and incorrect logic possible, without even proving half of your claim. Even if we were to go with your incorrect use of powerscaling, you would have to prove that Yoda is superior to Han Solo, otherwise your entire point is invalid. And going by how powerscaling actually works, feats prove that Sidious is superior to both Yoda and Han Solo.

Yoda You didn't answer the question so you know I'm right. I'm not assuming Disney takes precedence that's fact. I can give you the quote again if you like. EU is not more consistent. It has so much more content and contradicted itself often. Canon has never done so.
https://hobbylark.com/fandoms/Contradictions-in-the-Star-Wars-Expanded-UniverseLegends
Describe a glass canon to me? Yoda was most certainly not one.

You called my buff and I still gave evidence so you just ignore it (again). You wonder why I'm winning. Yoda's beaten a legion of clones. Many clones became stormtroopers who've given Han trouble many times. Han would later kill Sidious. If we look at feats and see how Sidous struggled against Yoda, it looks like Yoda wins.

Darth Sidious What... I did answer the question... you asked who looks stronger. I responded; "Sidious, because he has the higher attack potency, meaning he can destroy more, meaning he is more powerful. It's quite simple." Were you unable to tell that was my answer to your question? You really just take anything to try and say you're winning, don't you? Disney doesn't take precedence here and that's fact, I've given proof of this numerous times, you haven't given any proof of your claim that actually relates to this site. Also, I literally never said Yoda was a glass cannon (which you keep misspelling), so I don't get what your point is there. A glass cannon is a being with low defense and high power, which just adds to the fact that Sidious has the greater offense, which means he is stronger.

You tried to describe me as short-tempered, yet could only find one example to support such, despite me being on this site for two years. You can't say one example applies to everything, you're gonna need more to prove your claim there. And immediately a fault in your scaling, a majority of stormtroopers are NOT clones, only the very first batch were clones, most Stormtroopers are just random citizens of the Empire. And if we look at feats, and see how Yoda alone couldn't keep Sidious' spirit in Chaos and needed the help of every single dead Jedi (some of which are comparable to Yoda such as Revan and The Hero of Tython), it looks as if Sidious is several times stronger than Yoda.

Yoda You didn't answer the first question. Higher attack potency means nothing because jedi use the force for defence yet they were still able to oppose the sith. I take the fact that you don't answer questions and ignore evidence as winning yeah. Claiming it's fact isn't fact. I've debunked your assumptions too. You said every force user can be a glass cannon. Is Yoda not a force user? Sidious has greater offence and can be shot by Han or would wither away. His extreme weakness cancels out his strength.

You asked for evidence, I gave it, you ignore and ask for more. What's the point if you have a history of ignoring evidence? It never said Yoda wasn't enough to contain Sidious. Nothing was lost by the dead jedi containing Sidious. There was no opportunity cost. If we look at the life of Yoda and Sidious, Yoda looks far superior.

Darth Sidious Okay, I didn't even notice that was actually a question, especially since it ended with a period. Sidious's physical bodies were feeble for reasons I have explained in the past. Sidious was a Dark Side Nexus, he was too powerful to even remain on the physical plane. Higher attack potency means Sidious is stronger, because he can destroy more. If you can destroy more than your opponent, you are superior to them. That is basic logic, everyone should understand that. I've given zero assumptions, you're the only person who's given any assumptions about how things work on this site. I said every Force user is a glass cannon IF YOU WANT TO BE TECHNICAL. I did not say Yoda is always a glass cannon (though again, it could be argued that he is). Your logic is so basic and nonsensical. Having a weakness doesn't cancel out strength, that's not how anything works. That's like saying Superman isn't powerful because he's weak to Kryptonite. Or Vader isn't powerful because he's weak to Force lightning.

I acknowledged your evidence, first of all, I said it was not enough. You made a claim about me as a person, yet you could only bring one example even though I've been here for two years and have posted over 13,000 comments? One example is nowhere near enough to make a blanket statement about me as a person, so again, your claim is pretty baseless. Dark Empire absolutely said Yoda wasn't enough, because it took EVERY SINGLE DEAD JEDI. So again, feats say Sidious is several times stronger than Yoda.

Yoda That's a bad thing. He was killing himself. Like I've said jedi don't use the force for attack yet they still opposed the sith. Yoda would repel everything Sidious had and just use it against him. I've used actual definitions. That's not an assumption that's fact. You've assumed that because EU is used that it's suddenly more important. To bring it back to the original point (again) you said Sidious mastered every force abilty which is obviously wrong because if he just became a force ghost there'd be no problem but he couldn't because he's not a jedi. Superman's weakness to kryponite is minor compared to his powers. Sidious's weakness affected his abilty to live.

You asked for evidence, I gave it. You didn't specify multiples examples until after. If you want I can remind you on every comment I see you lose your temper? There was no opportunity cost to them holding him back. Your making it seem like they had lives to live and now they can't. Feats show Yoda as stronger. No one could best him in lightsaber combat, became Grand Master of the jedi, nearly killed Sidious and lived to 900 years through the use of the force. Sidious best feats was his overthrow of the Republic and the jedi order. That required intelligence not power and even then that plan was brought forward by Palagious.

Darth Sidious Bad thing, from a certain point of view. It merely showed that Sidious was too powerful to exist as a physical being. Whether they use the Force for offense or not is irrelevant, the facts are that higher attack potency equals higher strength. You've used definitions that apply to things outside this site, so again, assumptions. I'm using facts that I know and have confirmed are true with evidence. The EU is used more than Disney here, that should be obvious, it takes precedence. Again, Sidious' entire page is based on the EU and meant to be DE Sidious, yet you're trying to use Disney rules with him. Sidious did master ever Force ability, the reason he is not a Force ghost is because HE'S IN CHAOS. Were you not aware that dark side Force ghosts go to Chaos? The only exception to that is Darth Marr. Superman's weakness isn't minor, there's times when Kryptonite makes him physically weaker than an average human, which is far more of an affect than Sidious' own power being too much for the physical plane to handle.

Can you prove that I lose my temper on every comment? Because I notice you didn't give any more examples in your comment there. What are you even on about "opportunity cost," you're moving past the main point, being that Sidious was superior to every single dead Jedi to the point that they only overpowered him after combining their power, which very clearly shows that Sidious is stronger than Yoda. That feat alone shows that Sidious is eons ahead of Yoda in power. That is Sidious' best feat, not anything in Revenge of the Sith, not anything in Return of the Jedi, Sidious being so powerful that every single dead Jedi had to combine their power to overpower him is his best feat.

Yoda There's no point in having that power then if you can't live to use it. It's like the Infinity Guantlet in Endgame. I'm not sure if you've seen it so I won't say but if you have hopefully you'll know what I'm talking about. I just told you why using the force offensively doesn't mean your stronger. Dooku used the force more offensively than Yoda yet couldn't defeat him. Do canon and EU have different definitions here? Using EU more makes sense because there's more of it but that doesn't suddenly make EU take priority. Why bother risking his life confronting Luke and his friends if he could just become a force ghost? Obviously he can't do anything after he lost. That makes no sense. I know about Chaos, I've read DE. Forget Darth Marr because he's not canon, this is about Sidious. Using krytonite against Superman can be hard to achieve. There's many things he can do to avoid it. Sidious's rotting body is self caused.

I didn't say you lose your temper on every comment I said your known for it. This debate can be counted as a second example. Is that a yes then for me to remind you next time I see it? If I give more examples you'll probably just say "is that it" or just ask for even more. It makes you look worse but sure. It was no problem holding Sidious back. He wasted his last chance so it was all good. Sidious dying makes him eons ahead of Yoda? You sure? That wasn't even a fight really, this question is about who'd win in a fight not who can contain who.

Darth Sidious Man, I haven't seen a debate this long since Kratos vs Wonder Woman.

Yoda They were both knocked off the podium. Yoda ran out of time because the clones were coming. Yoda actually disarmed Sidious's lightsaber. Sidious kept trying to keep his distance to tire Yoda out while he was trying to climb up to him because he knew he'd lose.

Yoda Do you know who Yoda is? Sidious just about stalemated him while trying to run away and tire Yoda out.

Darth Sidious Did you even watch the movie? That's not even close to what happened. Yoda attempted to block Sidious' lightning, they were both flung back and Yoda fell off the senate pod. And Sidious, unlike Yoda, actually became more powerful after Revenge of the Sith. Sidious > Yoda.

Yoda What says that he became more powerful? And Yoda easily survived when he fell of the senate pod.

Darth Sidious Because Sidious survived into Return of the Jedi, and was later resurrected in the comic series Dark Empire, where it was said several times that he became far more powerful. And no **** Yoda easily survived falling from the pod, that's not what matters.

Yoda LordTracer Did you even watch the movie. Yoda disarmed Sidious's lightsaber and he then had to climb up the senate while Sidious threw things at him which tired Yoda out.

Darth Sidious Climbing up senate pods should not tire the most powerful Jedi Master of that era, and it certainly wouldn't make a difference in his Force ability. Yoda and Sidious were relative in power, and Sidious became stronger after Revenge of the Sith.

Yoda To climb up to Sidious while also catching senate pods and throwing them back would have been a lot harder than what Sidious was doing who could use gravity to help him. Even that huge disadvantage Yoda was still able to block everything Sidious threw at him. This video explains it www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq2cpaVAXg8&t=310s. I'd recommend watching the whole video but if you want to get straight to the point then start at 3:24 and end at 4:29

Darth Sidious Clone Wars 2003 was and exaggerated version of what canonically happened.

Darth Sidious More effort or not, it's not going to cause Yoda's Force ability to drastically drop. That's not how the Force works. Unless Yoda was so heavily fatigued from dodging all of the Senate pods that he got weaker in the Force, the effort it took him is irrelevant. Yoda and Sidious were portrayed as comparable in Force ability during RotS, and as I've said before, Sidious became stronger following Revenge of the Sith and even stronger after Return of the Jedi.

Yoda If your tired you can't use the force. It's why Qui-Gon died. He also used ataru (like Yoda) which caused jedi to use the force quickly all at once but also tired the user out. Doesn't mean they've lost the force. Usain Bolt after running 100m can't immeidialty go run another 100m. Doesn't mean he isn't the fastest man alive anymore. If Yoda had the high ground and Sidious had to climb up to him, Yoda would win in seconds. Did you watch the video?

Darth Sidious He was losing PHYSICAL ability, not Force ability, which is why Qui-Gon died. He did not lessen in Force power. And for the third time, SIDIOUS BECAME STRONGER AFTER RETURN OF THE JEDI. Even if Yoda was stronger than RotS Sidious (and he's not, they're equal), DE Sidious would destroy with no difficulty. And no, why would I need to watch that video when Yoda and Sidious were directly shown to be comparable in the movie? All of those feats Yoda performed; Sidious would scale to every last one of them.

Yoda Whether he became more power afterwards is irrelevant. We don't know if he ever became more powerful than Yoda in power. If you don't want to watch the video then your admitting you don't want to be proven wrong. The makers of that video use the official ROTS book and George Lucas comments. If Sidious was equal to Yoda why did he run? (I know your going to bring up Yoda running afterwards but he ran out of time. The clones came)

Darth Sidious Dude, have you even read Dark Empire? We know for a fact that Sidious became stronger than Yoda. And the fact that I don't watch the video, I explained because ROTS SIDIOUS SCALES TO EVERYTHING IN IT, AND DE SIDIOUS SURPASSES ALL OF IT. I'm not sure if you're aware, but the Sidious in this fight is from Dark Empire, not RotJ, and definitely not RotS.

Yoda I did read DE and no where did it say the emperor became more powerful than Yoda. Coming back to life 3 times isn't that great if he couldn't make it last. Yoda lives forever as a force Ghost. In ROTS Sidious didn't scale anything. Everything he threw down to Yoda, Yoda threw back up to him. Sidious was visibly scared. If you're refusing to look at evidence then you know your wrong.

Darth Sidious Darth Sidious was explicitly stated to be the most powerful Force user TO EVER LIVE in Dark Empire. That immediately puts him above Yoda. And your eternal life point means literally nothing, Yoda didn't become stronger as a Force spirit. Sidious did. Also I don't think you understand what I mean by scaling. Sidious and Yoda matched each other in Force power during RotS. That means they are at the very least comparable. As they are comparable, Sidious should be capable of replicating Yoda's feats. That is known as powerscaling, and Sidious scales to Yoda, which is why Yoda showing feats (that I doubt involve anything impressive like destroying a planet or solar system) is irrelevant. Sidious scales to all of them. And Sidious "looking scared" means nothing considering that through most of the fight he was laughing like a madman and EXPLICITLY MATCHED YODA IN FORCE ABILITY.

Yoda Yoda did become stronger because he was able to stay a force ghost forever. Sidious struggled to stay alive again. In the end he tried to steal someone's body (I forgot who) and still failed.
Yoda was still able to match Sidious's force power despite all the disadvantages against him. Assuming they are equal in the force, Yoda beat Sidious in the lightsaber dual so that makes Yoda better. Yoda was also quite old and past his prime.
Sidious would laugh at first then get scared how powerful Yoda really was.
If you'd watch the video then you'd see how powerful Yoda was. The only reason you would won't is because you don't want to admit Yoda winning.

Darth Sidious Dude, Force spirits are not combat applicable, you don't become stronger as a Force spirit. Yoda had no Force based disadvantages during his duel against Sidious, and he matched him with full power. This very clearly means they are equal or at the very least comparable, which again brings me back to why I don't need to watch the video, which you don't seem to understand. SIDIOUS. SCALES. TO. EVERYTHING. IN. IT. RotS Sidious is equal to Yoda, and can therefore replicate his feats, that's how powerscaling works and I don't think you understand that. Also, Yoda being a superior duelist doesn't make him stronger than Sidious, that's not how anything works. If being a superior duelist meant being stronger, Jaina Solo would be more powerful than Yoda, and that certainly isn't the case. Now, show me any proof that Yoda is superior to Dark Empire Sidious, because there is a mountain of evidence (and logic because DE Sidious >>> RotS Sidious = Yoda) supporting Sidious being far stronger.

Yoda "Yoda had no Force based disadvantages during his duel against Sidious". Do you not remember order 66? The novel said that the huge disturbance in the force massively threw Yoda off all the way in Kashyyyk. Almost all jedi died at the same time. Yoda and Obi-Wan were massively demoralised. Sidious had turned not just Dooku but the chosen one against them.
If they're equal in force powers but Yoda's better at lightsaber skills then Yoda's better. Sidious has no advantage on him
DE isn't even canon anymore so I'm not sure why you keep going on about that. If your too scared to be proven wrong by watching the video then why should I consider legends stories. lol you know I'm right but can't admit it.

Darth Sidious Demoralization does not equal a drop in Force ability, so... Oh, and by the way, THE EU IS TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION HERE. Sidious' stats are in fact based on his appearance in the EU, as are 99% of the Star Wars characters. So I'd suggest that you do take it into account, because that's how things work here.

Yoda If your mentally demoralised it still affects you because your not going to be focused. In fact apart from running out of time, Yoda abandoned the fight because he realised there was no point anymore. The republic was gone and the jedi were died. They weren't coming back.
Do you know what also counts here? Evidence. You're supposed to vote for the person who'd win not the person who's your favourite character. Obviously you don't know what evidence is because you don't want to watch the video.

Darth Sidious I don't even like Sidious that much, so... calling bias doesn't help you. And you still are not understanding what powerscaling is, so I'm going to say it as simple as possible.
Sidious = Yoda.
Because Sidious = Yoda, Sidious can do anything Yoda can do.
Therefore, any feats you give for Yoda can apply to Sidious as well.
Therefore, there is no need to watch the video.
I'll even give an example to help you get it. Darth Vader > Anakin Skywalker, right? If you were to give a feat for Anakin, Vader would be able to replicate that feat because he is stronger than Anakin and therefore scales above him. Do you understand that now?
Also I love how you're talking about evidence even though you're ignoring Dark Empire despite being told that this site uses the EU, this is Dark Empire Sidious and Dark Empire explicitly says Sidious is the strongest Force user to have ever lived.

Yoda I don't believe for 1 second that Sidious isn't your favourite character. You don't want to look at any evidence that your favourite character would lose. That's what fanboys do.
The video talks about how powerful Yoda was against Sidious and also things that Yoda could do which Sidious couldn't. Don't act like you know what the video's about if you haven't watched it (unless you already have). The lightside isn't identical to the dark so you don't know what your talking about.
I haven't once ignored DE. I've looked at feats by Yoda and SIdioius while you've just looked at Sidious. No wonder you think Sidious would win

Darth Sidious For your information, my favorite character is Darth Caedus, with Darth Nox and Jaina Solo as close seconds. Not Sidious.

I never said the light and dark were identical, I said that any feats of power Yoda had would be applicable to powerscaling because RotS Sidious is equal to him and Sidious in his prime is superior. Unless you think that if Yoda were to, let's say lift a rock, Sidious wouldn't be able to do so because he doesn't have the light side. And considering that you seem to think that random feats override what was shown in the fight, show me where Yoda has ever destroyed a planet. Because Sidious has done that. Show me where Yoda has mindhaxxed the entire universe. Because Sidious has done that. By your logic, Sidious would win due to having the vastly superior feats.

Yoda No you said "any feats you give for Yoda can apply to Sidious as well". That's rubbish because there a things Yoda can do that Sidious could never do as a darkside user. Don't try and change your answer.
Yoda was actually well past his prime in ROTS because he was so old and close to death so even with Sidious getting stronger it wasn't enough.
You want to see evidence of Yoda's power? Watch the video. Literally everything your asking for is in the video. If you don't then don't tell me Sidous would win if you don't even know Yoda is.

Darth Sidious And you fail to understand the powerscaling. I am not changing my answer, I am explaining it further because you for some reason cannot understand it. And you bringing up Yoda not being in his prime is irrelevant because:
1. We have never seen Yoda in his prime.
2. The Yoda in this battle is RotS Yoda.
And no, I want you to give a simple yes or no answer: Has Yoda ever destroyed a planet, has Yoda ever mindraped the entire universe? Because by your own logic, if Yoda has not done that, he loses to Sidious.

Yoda You did change your answer because when I told you how the lightside and dark aren't identical all you said was " I am not changing my answer, I am explaining it further because you for some reason cannot understand it". Yeah that's not an explanation.
1. Yoda being past his prime is relevant because it's a factor against him in the same way Vader being a cyborg is.
2. Your right. So why do you keep talking about DE? If you want to talk about Sidious at his strongest then you need to do the same for Yoda.
Obviously Yoda hasn't done those things because why would a jedi do that? What a stupid question. And I don't remember Sidious doing that in DE. That isn't even close to my logic.
Can Sidious use battle meditation? Or Tutaminis? Or use the force to prolong his life? May not sound as destructive but a jedi uses the force for defence not attack. The darkside is not stronger.
"If you define yourself by your power to take life, the desire to dominate, possess, then you have nothing" Obi-Wan. Make of that what you will

Darth Sidious That doesn't prove your incorrect claim of me changing my answer. I literally explained that the reason all of Yoda's feats apply to Sidious is POWERSCALING. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT POWERSCALING IS?
1. We don't know what Yoda in his prime is, so the point is irrelevant. Yoda in every fight on this site is RotS Yoda, unless explicitly stated otherwise.
2. That's not how it works. Yoda's prime, as far as we have actually seen, is RotS. We have not once seen what Yoda can do in his physical prime, RotS must be used. Meanwhile we have seen Sidious' physical prime, which is Dark Empire. Therefore, Dark Empire must be used. Is that fair? No, but that's how things work here. Life isn't fair, the battles here don't have to be.

Never said the dark side was stronger. And for your information, yes Sidious has battle meditation, or at least some form of it, as he was able to empower Sedriss to the point that he could contend with Dark Empire Luke Skywalker. He is also able to demoralize DE Luke to the point that he forgets his own name. What does Battle Meditation do again? Oh right, empower allies and demoralize enemies. Sidious did exactly that. He does have Tutaminis as well. As was stated in Dark Empire, Sidious not only mastered EVERY SINGLE FORCE ABILITY, but he made up some of his own. So any ability you can name, Sidious has it and has mastered it. Oh, and you calling my question stupid can be applied to you. If you give a feat that is specifically based in the light side (ignoring how Sidious has mastered every Force ability), do you expect to see the Dark Lord of the Sith using a light side technique? No, you don't. So if my example is invalid, yours are invalid as well. Your own logic can be used against you. And again, by your own logic, if Yoda has never destroyed a planet while Sidious has, Sidious instantly wins the fight.

Darth Sidious Oh and by the way, The New Essential Chronology explicitly states, and I quote: "Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history." So...

Yoda I was right to correct you because you said "Sidious can do anything Yoda can do" then said "I never said the light and dark were identical". Let's try and be consistent shall we.
1. If you don't want to use Yoda at his prime then you can't do the same for Sidious. You've got to be fair (probably a hard thing to do against your favourite character). You don't actually control the rules but I can play along with that.
2. Yoda was well past his prime in the prequels. It says so in the novels and he was noticeably tired after every fight. Yoda died when he was 900 so that meant that by ROTS he was near death. He had to sustain himself with the force to stay alive (something Sidious couldn't do). DE Sidious was quite frail. His heavy use of the dark side meant any bodies he possessed would rot away and couldn't last. Han Solo kills him so if you want to use DE then sure. Yoda wins

Sidious can't actually use battle medidation like Yoda can. Sidious could only empower 1 person while Yoda could do that to thousands of wookies and clones while demoralising the enemy. Wow Sidious can make someone forget their own name, so powerful (sarcasm)! Tutaminis was a light side ability. Don't try giving Sidious abilities he doesn't have.

It would be impossible for Sidious to master every force ability because their are some force abilities that can only be used by light side users.

You missed my point but I suppose I was expecting too much from you. My point was that using the light side gives their users abilities unique to them and visa versa with the dark side. You also contradicted yourself. You said Sidious mastered every ability but then asked why would he use light side abilities. It's just your logic mate.

Answer this. Out of both characters who's still around in the star wars universe? Remember, the dark side isn't stronger.

Yoda If you watch the video you'll find out why. I never doubted that Sidious was the most powerful Sith. He's not the most powerful in star wars though

Darth Sidious I never said he was the most powerful in all of Star Wars. I said he was the most powerful MORTAL at the time of DARK EMPIRE, as that was explicitly stated. Sidious was equaled by Shimrra Jamanne, surpassed by Luke Skywalker, Darth Caedus and potentially Lumiya.

Darth Sidious For God's sake, do you understand powerscaling? I'll give an example of powerscaling so you can understand. As of the Revan novel, Revan is comparable or equal to Lord Vitiate. As they are equal, they have similar power. If Vitiate is able to move a planet, Revan would be able to do so as well, because they're comparable. It's the same with Sidious and Yoda. Do you understand that now?

1. Yoda's prime has never been seen, you'd be going off of assumption. Fights do not have to be fair, that's just how it is. I don't make the rules, but I have been here longer than you, and I'm a mod who actually know the rules, unlike you who hasn't been here long enough to know them. Again, Sidious is not my favorite. My favorite is Darth Caedus, as ive said. Hell, Sidious isn't even top ten, let alone number one.

2. Yoda being past his prime is irrelevant, we do not know what his prime actually is. And if you want to start using anti-feats, I can do that as well. Yoda struggled to push two droid ships together, meanwhile Sidious can rip open Force storms that consume planets. By your faulty and fallacious logic, Sidious wins.

Darth Sidious What Sidious did is exactly the same as Battle Meditation. BM demoralizes the enemy. What did Sidious do? Demoralize the enemy. And you overlooked that the person he did that to was LUKE SKYWALKER, one to the strongest Jedi Masters in history. Tutaminis is not a light side ability. I can give numerous examples of dark siders using Tutaminis, even in the movies.

The series explicitly said he mastered every Force ability. Also dark siders can use light side techniques just like how light siders can use dark side techniques.

Didn't contradict myself, actually. Just because you have an ability, doesn't mean you have to use it.

I know you aren't trying to correlate longevity with power. Here's an example of that being faulty. Revan was a powerful Jedi, and she's dead. Darth Nihl, a Knight level combatant. He's alive. Is Nihl stronger than Revan now? No. Here's another example. Darth Nihilus was one of the strongest Sith to ever life. He's dead. Meanwhile, Ania Solo, someone who is barely Force sensitive, is still alive. Is she stronger than Nihilus now? No. Your logic is faulty and fallacious.

Darth Sidious Also you ignored the fact that Yoda was explicitly stated to be unable to defeat Sidious in The New Essential Chronology and there are several other things that state Sidious was stronger than or equal to Yoda in RotS.

Yoda You keep pretending that because we've never seen Yoda at his prime it never existed. You can't ignore it. If you can't compare Yoda at his prime to Sidious then you can't use either of them at their prime. You can't give an advantage to one and not the other.

He's supposedly not your favourite yet your willing to write 4 replies about him, refuse to watch a video which has evidence or refuse to accept your wrong. Doesn't look like it.

I don't mind those anit-feats by Yoda because that was when he was really old and near death. The example I used about Sidious was when he was supposed to be at his best and he was still weak. By my logic Yoda wins as I've said. I'm not sure why you keeping saying by my logic Sidious wins when everything I say is to the contrary. Can you read?

Sidious never demorolised armies like Yoda did. In fact when Sidious died after ROTJ it threw the empire into choas. Give me an example when Sidious use Tutaminus, not other sith lords, Sidious. If Sidious mastered every ability why didn't he become a force ghost?

By your logic if we never saw Sidious use light side abilties then it can't be used. Just like how you said if we never saw Yoda at his prime we can't use that as an example. Let's try and be consistant.

Revan is a bloke by the way. You called him a she. Also Yoda was able to become a force ghost and pretty much live forever now. The ultimate goal by Palagious and Sidious which neither of them coukd achieve.

Yoda was unable to defeat Sidious but Sidious couldn't do the same. The odds were all against Yoda and he still came out with a stalemate. If you want to know why watch the video. If you don't your just accepting that you know the video will disprove everything you say.

Darth Sidious Except I can because that's how **** works here. Fights. Do. Not. Have. To. Be. Fair. Yoda's prime does not exist. Sidious' does. It is meant to be DE Sidious and RotS Yoda in this fight. If you've got a problem with that, you're more than welcome to find the profile for RotJ Sidious, and put him against Yoda.

For your information, I had to separate my reply because there's a word limit on these. Don't act like you know how **** works when you don't.

Can you read the fact that Yoda's prime is non-existent, unknown and you can't use it because of those things? I don't know why you keep bringing up something that literally doesn't exist in a tangible form.

He literally did become a Force spirit. Dark Empire, Sidious' spirit travelled from Endor to Byss in a year. And I don't need to give an example of Sidious specifically using it because he is stated to have mastered every single Force ability, which would include Tutaminis.

Not how it works, nice try though. We have literally zero knowledge on Yoda's prime, meanwhile Sidious has a multitude of statements of him having every single Force ability and being the strongest Force wielder.

My Revan was always female, I'm wired to refer to her as such. Sidious became a Force spirit, in Dark Empire. And again, longevity does not equal power.

So you admit the fight in RotS was a stalemate, by extension admitting that RotS Sidious = RotS Yoda, admitting that they scale to each other. Good job. And I sincerely doubt the video disproves literally everything I've said, as I've mentioned things that have literally nothing to do with Yoda and the video is centered on Yoda. And you can't talk about ignoring anything when you're ignoring that Sidious has been stated by people who worked on the movie to be superior to Yoda, and he was stated to be the strongest Force wielder of all time in Dark Empire.

Yoda Calm down bro. These characters aren't real. Your acting like a spoilt child who can't get his way. If this is stressing you out too much then don't reply. Relax.

Let's assume things don't have to be fair. Considering that it just says Yoda and Sidious and doesn't say ROTS or DE then lets say that Yoda is from ROTS and Sidious is from before TPM. Yoda wins. Doesn't sound fair but that's what you want right.

If you watched the video you'd have realised Sidious would lose and wouldn't have to write so much.

If Yoda at his prime didn't exist then he must have been born before TPM. A bit weird considering in ROTJ he was 900.

How well did Sidious as a force spirit work out for him then? If there isn't an example of Sidious using Tutaminis then it must not exist like how Yoda at his prime doesn't exist. Becoming a force ghost is impossible for dark side users so clearly he didn't master all force abilities.

Reven a guy. Look it up it'll say he's a male. Better yet look at his face.

I never said Yoda won in ROTS. Yoda stalemated despite all the odds against him. If Sidious didn't keep running and Yoda had time on his side he'd have won no doubt. The video explains why it was a stalemate despite Sidious being weaker. If you doubt the video disproves you then watch it. The only reason why you wouldn't it because you embarrassed about getting proven wrong. And yet you want me to believe that someone officially said Sidious was stronger than Yoda. Yoda was dead by DE, if he were alive they wouldn't have said Sidious was the strongest at the time.

There's a reason most people have voted Yoda. The majority is usually right.

Darth Sidious What, because I'm swearing? I swear in normal conversation, dude, it's normal.

Doesn't work, because as I explicitly told you, Sidious' page was edited based on Dark Empire. If you'd like to do RotS Yoda v. TPM Sidious, you can go to the add characters page and add Darth Sidious (TPM) to the site. It'd be redundant, but you can do that.

You keep saying that, yet I've explained why your logic is faulty. It'd be like if just linked a respect thread for Sidious and said he wins because of that.

I don't see your point, yes Yoda was born before TPM.

Not how it works, Sidious mastered all Force abilities, he knows Tutaminis. And you're wrong about Sith not being able to become Force spirits. Darth Bane, Exar Kun, Emperor Valkorion, all the spirits Darth Nox has bound to her, Darth Marr. Sith have been becoming Force spirits for a while now.

I know Revan is canonically a male. As I just said, my Revans have almost always been female, I'm used to referring to Revan with feminine pronouns.

You're assuming Sidious wouldn't be the strongest in DE if Yoda was still alive, which is faulty because Sidious was stated to be the strongest OF ALL TIME. All time, not merely Dark Empire. Yoda was included in that. Also there was the fact that it took the spirits of every single deceased Jedi (which would include Yoda) just to keep Sidious' spirit (by the way Sidious was a Force spirit too, so again darksiders can become Force spirits) from escaping Chaos. Oh, and most of the statements come from people who worked on Revenge of the Sith, not Dark Empire, and they still say Sidious is stronger. So your point is invalid.

The majority is not mostly right, I can give tens of examples on this very site of that not being the case in the slightest. Simply going by majority rule is frankly a stupid way to live life.

Yoda The way you reply is most certainly not normal for most people but if that's normal for you then sure.

No need to add them because according to your rules we can assume they're from mixed eras now.

The video isn't specifically about Yoda beating Sidious it talks about his powers. The Sidious fight came up when talking about lightsaber duelling because no one was better than Yoda. They were't trashing Sidious they just explained why Yoda didn't win. The makers of that video also make videos on Sidious as well as everything star wars.

If Sidious knows tutaminis then show me an example. If you can't then it doesn't exist like how apparently Yoda never existed when he was in his prime. I said "force ghost" not "spirit". Read carefully.

Snoke is actually the strongest of all time so DE has been overridden. If Sidious was so powerful why couldn't he do the most basic thing of any living creature and keep himself alive. He got stronger and weaker by DE. It didn't really take much to contain Sidious. Stealing Leia's child was his last hope and he lost it.

Who are these people from ROTS who say this? Living by the majority is called democracy mate.

Darth Sidious I don't see how swearing is abnormal, but you do you, I guess.

Not what I said. I never once said you can assume where the characters come from. What you're supposed to do is base the characters off of their prime, THAT HAS ACTUALLY BEEN SEEN, and in the case of comic characters, use the most consistent level of feats. So again, if you want to use TPM Sidious, either add him to the site, or specify that you're voting Yoda against TPM Sidious.

Yoda > Sidious in dueling, my thing is Force power, where Sidious is stated to have the advantage several times.

You're not understanding what I mean when I say it doesn't exist. I mean it doesn't exist as we have literally nothing to go off. There's no comics, movies, nothing that shows Yoda in his prime. Meanwhile Sidious at least has statements to support him knowing Tutaminis. Spirits and ghosts are synonyms, so...

You're can't merge Disney canon and EU canon. And no, Snoke is not the strongest of all time, The Last Jedi even shows that to not be the case. And compared to Sidious? Snoke's feats and scaling aren't even planetary while Sidious is easily galaxy level at least. Sidious failing to possess Anakin Solo doesn't mean he got weaker, the fact that he became a Dark Side Nexus and couldn't even stay in a physical form because of his power just shows how much stronger he got.

If you think the majority is right all the time, then you'd be voting for Superman over Black Adam here, as Superman has the majority of votes. Majority isn't always right.

Episode III, Becoming Sidious Webisode, 4:40, the producer of RotS says Sidious is more powerful than the Jedi. Eight times: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, The New Essential Chronology, Ultimate Star Wars, Databank: Yoda, Databank: Darth Sidious, Databank: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Story Gallery, Databank: Coruscant History Gallery and Revenge of the Sith Canon Junior Novelization. All say Sidious is stronger.

Yoda hello

Yoda I never said it was specifically you swearing, it was how you reply but now that you mention it swearing is unnecessary for a conversation about fictional characters. I noticed when people have been hostile and sworn at you you didn't like it yet you do the same.

You kind of did say you can assume where the character are from because you just assumed it's ROTS Yoda and DE Sidious which is strange considering that they're from 2 very different eras. Sidious's prime vs Yoda near death isn't fair and makes as much sense as ROTS Yoda vs Sidious before the prequels.

The fight in ROTS did not show Sidious had the advantage in the force at all. He was more confident in his use of the force over a lightsaber but not better than Yoda. If anything ROTS showed Yoda was stronger in the force as well because Sidious would use gravity to help him while Yoda had to throw them back up against gravity while spinning them and jumping up to him.

Yoda I get what your saying that we don't have examples of Yoda at his prime to compare with but we can't assume then that Yoda would never win. We were told that Snoke is the most powerful guy in all of star wars. He doesn't really have any feats to prove it but it's official. What statements are there of Sidious using specifically Tutaminis? A force ghost is very different and can only be achieved by light side users not dark.

Technically legends material doesn't count anymore but what a lot of people like to do is assume it counts until new canon comes and replaces it (e.g. Grievous used to have sad backstory about him trying to save his people but now it says he voluntarily became a cyborg). I don't really like the Snoke being the most powerful either because he hasn't earned that position (he was very underwhelming in TLJ) but it is what it is. Sidious couldn't even maintain his own body for long so what's the point. The very thing that made him stronger also made him weaker. Also having more feats doesn't necessarily mean someone is stronger. Yoda lived most of his life in peacetime, while Sidious was around during the galaxy's biggest conflicts so Sidious had more opportunities to prove himself.

Woah you actually looked up which characters I've voted for. A bit weird going the extra mile but sure. I didn't say I vote for the majority I said the majority is usually right. And who would you have voted for? Black Adam or Superman?

Darth Sidious I couldn't care less about people swearing at me, unnecessary hostility is what I have a problem with. And how is the way I reply abnormal? I would much rather split the response into several categories to explain each point as opposed to just having a massive wall of text.

RotS Yoda is the strongest Yoda we have ever seen, and he needed no buffs or artificial power ups to get there. It makes completely logical sense to use him, unless you want to use RotJ Yoda, because that's literally the only other Yoda. Similarly, DE Sidious is the strongest Sidious with no buffs and his page was edited based on Dark Empire. It makes perfect sense to use him. It makes zero sense to use TPM Sidious.

Did I say it showed Sidious has greater strength? No. I said it has been stated numerous times that Sidious had the advantage.

When exactly were we told Snoke was the most powerful? There has never been a difference between Force ghosts and Force spirits, I only call them Force spirits because I think it sounds better. And I already gave examples of Sith Force spirits, namely Darth Marr, who became a spirit after death, just like Yoda, Qui-Gon, Kenobi and Anakin.

The EU is still canon, actually, the continuity exists alongside Disney continuity. This is apparent by Star Wars #108's, an EU series' release, showing that the EU can run alongside Disney. And I never said more feats equals more power, I said superior feats AND SCALING equals more power. And Sidious has both superior feats and scaling to Yoda. Also even if Snoke is stated to be the strongest, I'm going off of EU for both Yoda and Sidious so that means nothing to me.

I didn't look it up, it appeared on the front page like every comment does. And every comment shows who you voted for, so... not like it took effort or even intention to see that. And you said the majority is usually right as reasoning for Yoda winning, which is frankly asinine because what makes the majority right here, but not on Adam v. Superman?

Yoda I have seen people swear and then you didn't like it. One example I remember was on Superman vs Goku. I think you said something like don't swear or I'll ban you. Your replies in general are usually condescending or just confrontational. It's weird.

It also makes zero sense to compared one character at his prime while the other is old. In fact it'd make the most sense to compare them both during ROTS so they're both on the same time zone.

I know what you said but your still wrong. There are several sources which prove that Yoda was stronger. Also it was said by Andy Serkis, Rian Johnson and some other Disney producers before the movie came out. I'm surprised you've never heard this before. screenrant.com/snoke-powerful-vader-emperor-andy-serkis/

Force ghosts can't be contained like force spirits can and it's impossible for any dark side user to become a force ghost. You can't use spirit when meaning ghost because they're so different. Do you know what a force ghost is?

Did I just read that? "The EU is still canon". It's called EU because it's EU not canon. Sidious doesn't have better feats Yoda does. Yoda embodied the force instead of just using it as a tool. Through the force he became immortal while Sidious couldn't maintain a body.

Darth Sidious That's not even close to what I said, I said tone down the excessive swearing because the creator of the site, Galactus, doesn't like it. Also it's low-key hypocritical for you to call me weird for bringing up one of your other votes and then you do the same on a battle that wasn't even recently commented on. And I'm only condescending or truly confrontational when someone deserves it. Now, I'll question someone on their choices, but I'm not confrontational about it unless they've given me real reason to act as such.

Except it's not RotS Sidious, it's always been DE Sidious. So again, if you want a different Sidious, you can add that version to the site.

How am I wrong when I gave eight sources, one of which coming from the producer of RotS, that said Sidious was stronger? Are all eight of those sources wrong? And Andy Serkis' statement really means nothing, as he's only an actor. He's not a director, producer or anyone who would have the authority to make a claim like that. Now, if you could bring a link where Rian Johnson says Snoke is the strongest, that'd carry some weight.

Darth Marr. Darth Marr is literally a Force ghost, since you think the terms are so different. So again, darksiders can become Force ghosts.

It's called the EU because it is the EXPANDED universe. The term expanded universe does not equal non-canon. And I've already gone over how Sidious has the superior feats; creating Force storms, being stated to be the strongest Force wielder in history, requiring the spirit of every deceased Jedi to defeat him, etc, etc. Yoda doesn't have feats on that level.

Yoda I just found it again. The only person who swears excessively is you and you call in normal. I said it's weird how you reply so defensively in most your replies not how you voted. We actually vote the same way most of the time. No one here should be spoken to condescendingly because it just makes you sound annoying then no one values your opinion. I haven't sworn at you or got personal but you act so triggered. Just keep things civil and it's be alright.

Does it say DE Sidious? There's a DE Luke but not one for Sidious. Luke would become one of the greatest jedi yet they put Grand Master Luke separte from normal Luke. Given that Yoda and Sidious have fought in ROTS this makes the most sense. Everyone else here in the comments only talks about ROTS and so did you at first. It's pretty much common knowledge that Yoda would have won in ROTS had the fight been fairer. If you dispute that watch the video.

Disney is so strict on what actors in star wars can and can't say. Lucas and Mark Hamil have been told off and forced to delete tweets for saying things they shouldn't. There's a few youtubers which explain why.

I've seen a few explanations but the main one I remember is in The Clone Wars episode "sacrife" and/or "destinity" where a force priestess asks if Yoda only had good intentions and light in his heart. When Yoda says yes then he's allowed to learn. You must learn to let go of your body and move on. The sith can't do that. Your original point was that Sidious mastered every force ability but if he could then why didn't he become a force ghost? He couldn't. A spirit is something else.

If it came out before Disney bought star wars and it's not the movies or The Clone Wars, it's legends and no longer counts. Did you not know that?

It really wasn't that much effort to contain Sidious's spirit. He needed Leia's son and he got shot by Han Solo. Doesn't sound so great. He became as weak as he did strong so it all countered each other.

Darth Sidious I swore like twice, how is that excessive? And no, I don't get defensive when someone questions my vote. And when I said you called me weird, I was referring to your earlier comment where you said me bringing up your vote on Adam v. Superman is weird.

It doesn't need to say DE Sidious because again, his page was edited based on DE and RotJ Sidious, who is virtually the same as RotS Sidious, has a separate profile. And I only talked about RotS because I was replying to a comment about RotS.

The eight different sources, including the producer of the movie disagree with you.

That doesn't mean the actors can't be incorrect. For example, Daisy Ridley (if I'm remembering this correctly) once said Rey can defeat Anakin Skywalker, but she would lose to Mace Windu and Obi-Wan Kenobi. She's implying Kenobi > Anakin. Anakin has shown vastly superior feats to Kenobi, and in RotS he was portrayed as superior as Dooku thrashed Kenobi and then Anakin stomped Dooku.

This site follows the Expanded Universe for the Star Wars characters and 90% of all Star Wars characters here that have stats are based on the Expanded Universe, so calling it non-canon isn't helping your case here. So again, Darth Marr became a Force ghost after death, the Sith are capable of becoming such.

He WANTED Anakin Solo to have a physical vessel. He did not need him. And again, it took every dead Jedi to keep him in Chaos, which happened immediately after his spirit was intercepted by Empatojayos Brand.

Darth Sidious @LordTracer Swearing twice isn't really "excessive"...

Yoda Your getting defensive now. Anyway the video, several youtubers, this link screenrant.com/star-wars-most-powerful-force-users-ranked/ and several other things all say Yoda was stronger. If you don't look at the evidence then of course your going to think Sidious is stronger because you don't know.

Obi-Wan did beat Anakin so that makes sense. I don't like that Rey is so strong but from what we've seen in the movies she can apparently do anything and beat anyone she wants. While I believe it's bad writing it's what they're going for. Daisy Ridley wasn't made to retract that statement so it stands.

You didn't listen. If a new canon explanation comes out it overwrites the EU explanation (e.g. Grievous's backstory). The new canon says only light side users can become force ghosts so Darth Marr doesn't count.

If he wanted Anakin Solo for his body then of course he needed him. Why risk confronting all the heroes at once? It's not like the dead jedi were doing anything else so.

Darth Sidious @Tyrannus can you not use screen rant as evidence? Daisy Riddly has very limited knowledge of Star Wars so of course she would think Obi-Wan > Anakin, and Mace threw the fight to turn Anakin, so yeah it makes sense for her to think Obi-Wan > Rey > Anakin > Mace. I don't agree with any of what I just wrote in my opinion it's Palpatine > Mace (Mace needed Vaapad to beat Palpatine) > Anakin > Obi-Wan > Luke >>> Kylo => Rey, the RotS commentary by Lucas says that Mace beat Palpatine by still and the RotS novel goes on a long rant about how Vaapad works. Sith can't become Force Ghosts that's why Revan wasn't in the Clone Wars.

Yoda Obi-Wan did beat Anakin though. They were very close but Obi-Wan's mastery of form III was unbreakable. What do you mean when you say Mace threw the fight for Anakin? Why would he kill himself to help turn Anakin to the dark side. I agree with the rest though. Rey shouldn't even be on a younglings level but Kathleen Kennedy, JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson have handled things very badly.

Darth Sidious I was saying what Daisy Riddly must have as head canon, I meant PALPATINE threw the fight to turn Anakin like how Vader threw the fight on RotJ to turn Luke, actually Rey be on the level of Ezra Bridger or Luke from the canon Marvel comics because she's received that level of training

Darth Sidious Dude, Screen Rant isn't evidence. It's a fan made site that has consistently been seen to not do proper research. Do you have anything that's, I don't know, actually reliable? Such as writer or databook statements, which I have eight of.

Kenobi defeated Vader on Mustafar, that doesn't mean he's stronger than him. And considering that Ridley's statement contradicts itself, it shouldn't be considered valid.

You didn't listen either. This site uses the EU, and it uses it far more than it does Disney canon. So again, Darth Marr. Force ghost. Sith can do it. Also Darth Bane did so in The Clone Wars.

He literally didn't need a physical vessel, Hell, his spirit alone was powerful. And the dead Jedi not doing anything doesn't mean anything, it doesn't change the fact that it required every single dead Jedi, including Yoda, Revan, Mace Windu and all the other most powerful Jedi, to defeat Sidious.

Darth Sidious Darth Bane was a vision to Yoda

Darth Sidious I was also show how ignorant Daisy Riddly was.

Yoda Dark_Wing Neither Palpatine or Vader threw their fights. We'll have to see ep. 9 to see how strong she's become now.

Darth Sidious I don't think Palpatine threw the fight with Mace, I was just trying to explain Daisy Riddly's thought process for putting Obi-Wan above Anakin, Mace, and Palpatine. If Rey reads those Jedi texts then she should be extremely powerful kinda like how Luke became the grandmaster in the old EU.

Darth Sidious Before we continue on I just want both of you to know, I'm neutral in this debate but if I see something I can disprove from either of you, I'll do it.

Yoda There's this link from the star wars website www.starwars.com/news/from-a-certain-point-of-view-who-is-more-powerful-the-emperor-or-yoda there's this www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq2cpaVAXg8&t=269s there's several youtubers. There's also the fact that Yoda realised the force could be used for more than just a tool and embodied it meaning he could prolong his life and eventually become a force ghost. Sidious's use of the force eventually got him killed.

Oh boy you're disputing the Anakin and Obi-Wan fight too now. Obi-Wan had mixed feeling about fighting his "brother" while Anakin not only went all out but was boosted by the dark side and Obi-Wan still beat him. What did Ridley say that contradicted herself?

Yeah no. It's no longer counted as official star wars lore. There are sequel characters used on this website and canon will always override what's legends. The new canon explanation says only light side users can become ghosts.

Why did Sidious go after Anakin Solo then if he was so powerful without a body? I think some dark side spirits (i forgot who) told Sidious the baby was his last chance.

Darth Sidious Obi-Wan had the same battle mentality that Jaina Solo had when she fought and killed her blood brother Jacen, Obi-Wan only won because he outsmarted Anakin.

Disney exclusive characters are aloud on this site but so are EU exclusive characters like Jaina Solo and Revan.

If you could have the grandson of the Chosen One would you not turn it down?

Darth Sidious That link both has someone saying Sidious is stronger and Yoda is stronger, so that doesn't help your case, and YouTubers are, more often than not, unreliable sources. There's also the fact that the way the Force is used means nothing in way of power and attack potency. And again, eight separate things, coming from actual reliable sources such as the movie producer, writers on the databook and writers of the novels say Sidious is stronger than Yoda. The series itself is saying Sidious > Yoda, and there's more evidence towards that than the latter.

Do you just think beating someone in a fight automatically means you're stronger than them? Because that's not how it works, especially when Revenge of the Sith itself shows Kenobi being far inferior to Anakin. Unless you want to say he got weaker when he became Vader.

Wrong, again. This site uses the EU, and it uses the EU first and foremost. There are Disney canon characters because there's no reason for them not to be here, it doesn't mean Disney canon takes precedence, especially when there's far more EU than Disney. Marr became a Force ghost, Sith can become Force ghosts, and that is factual.

Because he wanted a physical body, and the fact that taking Anakin Solo's body would add his extremely high potential onto Sidious' own. Either way, the fact is that Sidious' spirit is a dark side nexus, already showing that he's insanely powerful without a body.

Darth Sidious Okay @LordTracer if immortality is the goal of the Sith, then why haven't more Sith become Force Ghosts? And more importantly why didn't Revan show up in TCW, if Sith can become ghosts then why didn't Revan do that (mind you when Revan died his light and dark were split, I am fully aware that Jedi Revan became a Force Ghost, but this is Sith Revan).

Darth Sidious Well that's very simple. The majority of Sith are focused on the here and now. They want to be immortal at this very moment, they don't care about the future and they don't want their immortality to be as a Force ghost. They want to be immortal while they're still on the physical plane. And Darth Revan didn't become a Force ghost because the Darth Revan personality became one with the Revan personality. They were one, they died together, there was no longer a Darth Revan to become a Force ghost.

Darth Sidious Darth Plagueus (book Plagueus) didn't seem focused on the here and now and look how it turned out for him. Thanks for clearing that up for me, I've always wondered why they didn't let Revan be in TCW.

Darth Sidious *Vitiate (not Plagueis)

Darth Sidious Vitiate was very focused on the here and now, he'll he even called himself the "Immortal Emperor." He kept taking alternate host bodies to stay alive in the present, physical plane.

Darth Sidious It's been ages since I've played KotOR and I didn't even like the game at all (I did like the comic though), but wasn't Visiate a spirit at one point or am I thinking about someone else?

Darth Sidious Marr was kind of an outlier among the Sith who were all focused on the here and now. Even masters like Visiate, Malk, Plagieus, Snoke (who isn't even a Sith for crying out loud), were also focused on the here and now, Darth Bane was more focused on his legacy and how the Rule of Two will effect the Sith Order in the future therefore he becomes a Force Ghost youtu.be/DoOwyGyVsSA. Am I getting anything wrong here or was that TCW Darth Bane just a vision?

Darth Sidious He becomes a Force ghost after the Outlander kills him for the final time, and that's only if Darth Nox is the Outlander because she binds Valkorion like she does with most Force ghosts.

Yoda It would actually be disappointing if they make Rey equal to better than Grand Master Luke. She didn't really do much to earn that power. If they could just say that Snoke was Palagious and he's still alive it'd almost fix things (unlikely).

Yoda LordTracer You didn't read the link all the way to the end. It said overall Yoda would win. Read it again. Youtubers tend to be very reliable because they get thousands of views and if they lie or twist things in anyway people attack them over it and they lose their credibility. The youtubers I watch almost always say where they're getting the information from.

I didn't say beating someone means your stronger but it was the case with Obi-Wan. Anakin couldn't get past his solid defence. Form III was all about defending until your opponent gets tired or makes a mistake then strike and that's what Obi-Wan did.

I know this site uses EU too but what's canon will always override what's EU, that's why it's called canon. The new canon says a dark side user can't become a force ghost. Now that's a fact. Do you know what it means when something is canon?

Yoda That's exactly why sith can't become force ghosts now. You must learn to let go. The sith couldn't do that.

Darth Sidious I can name numerous YouTubers that get thousands of views and are not credible sources in the slightest. So, again, do you happen to have any author, databook or novel statements? Because right now, I have the greater amount of evidence supporting Sidious > Yoda, and that's in RotS alone.

That doesn't mean Kenobi is more powerful, what? Dueling skill does not equal Force ability, and as you just said, he had to wear Vader out, so it wasn't even a maximum powered Vader. And again, Anakin was portrayed as superior to Kenobi during RotS, just look at how their fights with Dooku went.

That's not how it works here. The EU takes precedence. So again, Sith Force ghosts are things, Darth Marr is a perfect example of this.

The Sith being unable to let go is irrelevant, because it has absolutely nothing to do with their power.

Yoda You didn't even look at all the links I gave you so why are you asking for more. There's always going to be those youtubers that aren't good but some of the biggest star wars youtubers are quite factual and fair. In the original ROTS script it says after Yoda deflects Sidious's lightening back at him (Yoda had disarmed Sidious at that point), "Sidious was doomed". In the book Sidious first lighting strike was deflect by Yoda into his guards instead of hitting himself. That pretty much makes all your sources redundant. Yoda was fighting to kill while Sidious was fighting for his life. This was all while Yoda was well past his prime. Try actually looking at the evidence this time.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_MlklN5Imk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq2cpaVAXg8&t=269s
https://www.starwars.com/news/from-a-certain-point-of-view-who-is-more-powerful-the-emperor-or-yoda
https://www.quora.com/Is-Palpatine-Sidious-more-powerful-than-even-Yoda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzakpzcmsuM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1QSF9YJMQA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfPGIY7pUTg

It's not like Anakin started the fight tired. They were equal in force ability too at the time. Did you not see that scene when they both try and force push each other? "Anakin was portrayed as superior to Kenobi during RotS". Who won out of the both of them again? When was the last time you saw ROTS? A lot of your doubt would be solved by watching the movie.

EU never takes precedence over canon. This isn't just with star wars it's with everything. EU has the old explanation and what's canon has the actual explanation. That's not me saying that because that's how I want things, that's the definition.

The sith being unable to let go is relevant because it's the exact reason why they can't become force ghosts.

Yoda www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_MlklN5Imk

Yoda www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq2cpaVAXg8&t=269s

Yoda www.starwars.com/news/from-a-certain-point-of-view-who-is-more-powerful-the-emperor-or-yoda

Yoda www.quora.com/Is-Palpatine-Sidious-more-powerful-than-even-Yoda

Darth Sidious @Tyrannus copy a link then put a period after it then copy another one. That's how I do it

They were not equal in Force power, Anakin had more raw ability and Obi-Wan had more practiced skill. Obi-Wan only won because he used an environmental advantage and without it he would have been defeated youtu.be/yE85edTFpHU. It's as clear as day that YOU haven't watched the movie @Tyrannus it's a good movie but not as good as ESB.

EU vs Canon is a matter of opinion, George Lucas approved of what we now call legends,

"Sith can't become ghosts because they can't let go" tell that do Darth Marr or Darth Bane youtu.be/DoOwyGyVsSA. Don't even think about calling TCW "non canon" TCW has always been and always will be canon (even by legends standers).

Yoda www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzakpzcmsuM

Yoda www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1QSF9YJMQA

Yoda www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfPGIY7pUTg

Yoda Oh yeah Anakin has more medichlorians then even Yoda but he wasn't allowed to reach his potential. The whole point of form III is to block until your opponant tires and/or makes a mistake, then you attack. That could happen anywhere. I've literally named scenes from ROTS so what you said didn't make sense.

Lucas approved legends material yes but then he sold it so all of that before the movies and the clone wars no longer counts. We can still look back at it but it's no longer an explanation. That's why sith can't become force ghosts now because the new canon explanation says so.

Darth Sidious Anakin wasn't able to reach his full potential because he burned. I think it makes perfect sense, Anakin's Force wall isn't that strong, Obi-Wan used everything he had to match Anakin, and even then the two only stalemated.

Darth Bane would disagree with you youtu.be/DoOwyGyVsSA. TCW is canon, so Darth Bane's ghost is canon, Darth Bane is a Sith, so Sith can become ghosts.

Darth Sidious What are you talking about the Clone Wars has always been canon.

Darth Sidious What did I say that didn't make sense?

Darth Sidious One single thing doesn't make all eight of my sources redundant, especially when one comes from the producer of RotS. So again, do you have any sources that are actually reliable, like a writer on the movie or databook statements? Because if you don't, the evidence is not in your favor. Quora, which is entirely based on random people's answers, is not evidence. Random YouTubers are not evidence. The producer of the movie is evidence. The novels are evidence. The databooks are evidence. Unless you can get something actually official, you have no evidence.

I like how you ignored the part where I said to look at their fights with Dooku. Kenobi got stomped by Dooku while Anakin stomped Dooku. That portrays Anakin as superior.

Wrong, again. You are ignoring the fact that here, on this site, the EU takes precedence. That's how things have been, and it's how they'll always be.

Darth Marr disagrees with your conclusion.

Yoda Dark_Wing They didn't stalemate, Obi_wan severed Anakin's limbs and left him slipping into the lava. From Obi-Wan's point of view Anakin was dying or about to die, the only thing he didn't do was put him out of his misery. I've already said multiple times TCW is canon, that and the movies. When Disney bought Lucusfilm they said TCW also counted as canon but everything else before that didn't. Darth Bane was never there, it was an illusion to test Yoda.

You said I hadn't watched ROTS when I'd already talked about scenes in the movie then brought up ESB for some reason.

Darth Sidious They stalemated here youtu.be/xTnQw188xyo. How was Darth Bane an illusion? It looked like his Force ghost if you ask me.


I said ESB was better

Yoda LordTracer What I said means that your eight sources are invalid. The script didn't just come from the producers it came from Lucas himself. You don't have a higher authority than that. I had a feeling that even after I gave you evidence you would just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. It proves I'm right. All those sources used evidence from official star wars statements and writers. Everything you wanted. Only reason why you wouldn't want to look at it is because you didn't want to be proven wrong.

I like how you ignore the fact that Anakin and Obi-Wan actually fought each other and Obi-Wan won. Anakin losing makes him superior how?

Where does it say specifically that EU takes precedence over what's canon? Don't make assumptions give me facts. Darth Marr doesn't exist anymore so.

I'm starting to get an idea of how you vote now. You don't look at the evidence, you just stick with one character (I'm guessing the character you like more) and nothing changes your mind even when proven wrong. I'll give you a chance to look at the evidence again and reply. If you find another reason to avoid it then that'll prove I was right all along. I can't wait to see what your excuse is this time

Darth Sidious Anakin would have beaten Obi-Wan if kenobi didn't get the high ground and then sliced his limbs off.

This site uses the composites of all of the Star Wars characters just look at Luke or Palpatine's profile pages.

This is still canon youtu.be/DoOwyGyVsSA and you have yet to disprove it.

Yeh that sounds like a LOT of users on this site.

Darth Sidious YouTube and Quora are not official sources. And again, I have eight pieces of evidence in my favor, you have one, at most. You do not have the preponderance of evidence here. Your one statement is contradicted by eight of them, if anything is invalid it's yours.

Because losing in a fight does not mean you are weaker, something you explicitly said you agree with earlier. Anakin is explicitly portrayed as superior to Kenobi prior to their fight.

Assumptions, coming from you, a guy who's only barely been on the site trying to tell me, a mod who has been here for over two years how things work. The EU takes precedence, for all two years that I've been here, that is how it has worked and there is nothing that says it no longer works like that.

You cannot talk about ignoring evidence at all, as you have ignored the EIGHT DIFFERENT OFFICIAL SOURCES that say Sidious > Yoda, and think that one thing can override all of that. That's not how evidence works. You've also continually ignored the fact that at least twice in Dark Empire, it was stated and shown that Sidious was superior to Yoda as Sidious was stated to be the strongest Force user to ever live and it took the Force spirits of every dead Jedi, INCLUDING YODA, to keep Sidious' spirit in Chaos. You've continually ignored all of that.

Yoda Dark_Wing Obi-Wan mastered form III. It meant he just had to keep defending until his opponant made a mistake. Anakin was tiring throughout the fight and couldn't get past Obi-Wan's defense. He would have lost either way.
I've already said how Darth Bane was just an illusion. Even Yoda says so in the video.

Yoda LordTracer I said all my sources had official statements to back them up. Your avoiding what I've said because I've proved you wrong. I'm glad to see I was finally able to persuade you Yoda wins though.

Where did Anakin show he had control of the fight? The whole point of the fight was to show how similar they both were but in the end form III beats form V.

How long I've been using this site is irrelevant and yet it seems I still know more. You didn't bring any proof that EU takes priority over canon so it's wrong (should be common sense though).

As I've already said the official script written by George Lucas already contradicts all your sources. Sidious had already lost his last hope at getting a body so he was kind of useless now. Try carefully reading everything I say before before replying. You saying things I've already answered and just repeating the same question again.

Darth Sidious You've proven nothing except that you don't know what official means. Quora is entirely fan operated, there is nothing official about it. YouTube is not official, unless the video comes from the official Star Wars channel. And it's quite hypocritical for you to talk about ignoring evidence considering you've given zero rebuttals to the fact that Sidious' spirit was stronger than Yoda and Sidious was explicitly stated to be the strongest Force wielder.

Wow, you didn't even read what I said correctly, good job. If you paid attention, you'd see that I said "Anakin is explicitly portrayed as superior to Kenobi PRIOR to their fight." Unless you think Kenobi just got a Zenkai boost or something, there is zero way for him to beat Vader on Mustafar, except for PIS.

Except for the fact that EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER IS BASED ON THEIR PORTRAYAL IN THE EU. How long you've been on the site is completely relevant because you don't have a clue as to how things work here, and you're trying to tell someone far more experienced than you how it does work. If you have a problem with the site using the EU first and foremost, too bad, because that's how things have always been here.

Except it doesn't, because ONE source does not override EIGHT. And you're still ignoring that Sidious is shown as being superior to Yoda twice in Dark Empire.

Yoda I gave you evidence which had official sources to back them up. You still didn't listen. I know how your going to reply back, your going to say YouTube and the others isn't evidence even though I've said it's not the website itself it's what it says which has the evidence provided. If you looked you'd see but you won't because you know Yoda wins. Yoda never became a force spirit, he became a force ghost and achieved immortality which Sidious failed at. I have refuted Sidious being stronger in the sources I gave you. You ignored them.

No I read that correctly, yet Anakin still lost because Obi-Wan was the better man. Just because you've struggled to read replies doesn't mean I do.

I'm not disputing the use of EU you said EU takes precedence over canon which is wrong. It goes against their own definitions. The fact that you don't know that makes it look like you don't have a clue on the most fundamental things on star wars.

Who has a higher authority than George Lucas?

Darth Sidious You have no refute for the fact that Sidious surpassed Yoda in Dark Empire, and absolutely none of your sources have nothing to say about that. If you want to give evidence, how about you recount it yourself instead of giving links to sites that are pretty much universally looked down upon here?

You clearly did, because you though I said Vader was portrayed as superior DURING the fight when I clearly said PRIOR to the fight. As quoted, I said; "Anakin is explicitly portrayed as superior to Kenobi prior to their fight." and then your response was; "Where did Anakin show he had control of the fight?" You clearly did not read correctly. And Kenobi didn't win because he was a "better man," that's idiotic.

Again, pay some actual attention. The EU takes precedence HERE, ON THIS SITE. I did not say the EU always takes precedence over canon EVERYWHERE, if you could pay attention, you'd realize that.

Irrelevant, one source doesn't invalidate eight. If you weren't aware, eight is greater than one, and when only one says Yoda has the advantage while eight say Sidious, it's very clear the intention is for Sidious to have the advantage. Oh, and you using the script is faulty as numerous things in the script were changed in the final movie (and again only refers to RotS when this is DE Sidious).

Yoda You said exactly what I knew you'd say. Did you read the sources I sent you? If you did then you'd see your wrong. If you didn't then it means you know your wrong. Either way I'm right. If I manually type up all the evidence it'd take too long and you'd just ignore it. Why should I when the links are right there, it's not like I'm hiding them.

No I read that right the first time. If Anakin was supposedly superior before the fight why didn't he win. Saying Obi-Wan was the better man considering he beat Anakin against all odds is idiotic how?

Lol your telling me to pay attention while ignoring certain things I say. I asked you for proof that EU takes precedence here. You didn't show it, therefore you wrong.

If George Lucas says 1 thing (that thing being the official ROTS script) and 8 others say another it won't matter. No one had a higher authority than Lucas. Star Wars was whatever he wanted it to be.

Darth Sidious Still dodging that Sidious clearly surpassed Yoda, nice, nice.

No, you clearly didn't read correctly. You asked how Vader had control over the fight, when literally nobody said he did. Being the "better man" means nothing in a combative sense. Being the better man has to do with personality traits. You want to know why Vader lost? How about the reason I already said, PIS. Also Vader's own arrogance, he didn't lose by being an inferior duelist and certainly not by being an inferior Force wielder.

I literally did give proof, EVERY CHARACTER IS EDITED BASED ON THE EU. And you can't give proof of the contrary, so...

Ignoring that things in the script were retconned by the movie itself, nice, ignoring that both the EU and Sequel Trilogy go against Lucas' original vision, nice. Your logic is faulty, try again.

Darth Sidious RotS novel: "Yoda disarmed Palpatine of bid lightsaber forcing him to use the senate pods to escape" implying that Yoda was a better fighter. "They were matched in terms of Force power until the lighting that Yoda was catching exploded sending them both back" implying that they're somewhat comparable in Force power, but Yoda never once used offense of powers. So I give a slight edge to Yoda in that regard. Had that fight of taken place in an open field where Yoda Could use the acrobatic footwork of form 4, then he would've won, but this is Dark Empire Palpatine who is much stronger than RotS Palpatine.

Anakin was the better warriors Obi-Wan was the better person, The only reason Anakin lost was because of dumb plot convenience.

Why are you questioning a two year member and an editor who has been here for over 200 days? Legends has its fingerprints all over these characters, Luke Skywalker https://www.superherodb.com/luke-skywalker/10-10447/history/. EU has relevance on this site so quit trying to argue that it doesn't.

George Lucas' word stays until it's retconned.

Darth Sidious Both the EU and Sequels retcon George Lucas' statements so...

Darth Sidious How does the EU retcon George Lucas?

Yoda You want me to believe a man who allows himself to get shot in the back and couldn't maintain his body could surpass Yoda. But I see you avoided the question of whether you looked at the evidence which means you've conceded defeat.

Like I said I read that correctly but you didn't. If Anakin was shown to be superior before the fight why didn't he win? Did he magically get weakened as the fight began? Wow now your going to dispute what I meant by "the better man". What's next? Obi-Wan was the better man because he won. Arrogance was part of Anakin's character. He had all the advantages over Obi-Wan and still lost.

Proving my point once again. I know EU is used on this site, I already said. You said EU take precedence over canon here which you couldn't give any evidence for. I should just start copy + pasting my answers because your asking the same things.

When was that part of the script retconned? Nothing in EU or the sequels changed that. Try again son

Yoda Dark_Wing Anakin couldn't get past Obi-Wan's defences. Obi-Wan was waiting for Anakin to inevitably slip up which he did.

I never said there isn't EU used here. He's been here longer but he's still wrong and doesn't sound like he knows much about star wars.

Darth Sidious Obi-Wan used Anakin's arrogance against him, that's how he won. He thought he could do the same move that Obi-Wan used to beat Maul on Naboo, and that got him cut into ribbons. He was originally going to beat him like this https://youtu.be/jlC0GQWLpJw. In the RotS novel Kenobi is credited as THE master of form 3 and it's almost impossible to get through his defense, so I doubt Anakin would have any easier time beating Kenobi than Mace Windu would have.

I just gave you evidence for how EU takes precedence over canon and I've giving you everything, so please stop whining about it.

Darth Sidious Funny, you didn't give any evidence to support Sidious NOT being stronger than Yoda when it's stated twice that he is stronger.

PIS, do you understand what PIS means? And you just conceded that Vader had all the advantages, you concede that Vader is stronger than Kenobi, which was the whole point.

I literally did give evidence for it, you just don't pay attention. Every. Single. Character. Is. Edited. Based. On. The. EU. I'm gonna say it again so you can understand it. Every. Single. Character. Is. Edited. Based. On. The. EU. One more time for emphasis. Every. Single. Character. Is. Edited. Based. On. The. EU. Do you understand that fact now, and understand that you're wrong about how things actually work on this site? Good.

Considering the fact that eight EU statements explicitly say Yoda was at the disadvantage against Sidious during their fight... those are retcons.

Darth Sidious And you have STILL failed to refute the fact that Yoda could not defeat Dark Empire Sidious on his own.

Yoda Dark_Wing What evidence was that? Who's whining? I'm the only one who been pretty chill about this. I didn't realise how personally you both took this.

Darth Sidious Nobody was taking it personally, I don't know why you'd assume anyone was...

Darth Sidious Because I told him to quit whining about EU vs canon.

Yoda It was because of the way your replying. Replying back about what's EU and canon isn't whining? Do you know what the word means?