Yoda & Mace WinduvsCount Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL)

Count Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL) i feel you

Count Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL) Wait, how did we get Yoda > Palps out of that?

Count Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL) "without Vaapad" Because that *totally* makes sense. And Sidious is not a glass cannon when his Force wall is up.

Count Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL) Because Palpatine was visibly scared of the green Jedi and tried to run at least twice during the fight, the saber duel took place on the rising senate chair in which Yoda couldn't use his fighting style of Ataru to anywhere near the extent he normally would have been able to yet despite this he was too fast for Palps and forced him to drop his lightsaber with the RotS novel going as far as to say "the Emperor was doomed," Palpatine then jumped to the top of the stadium while Yoda fell to the bottom and was forced to climb the pods and throw them back at Palpatine who had the high ground and gravity on his side, once Yoda got to the top, the two all but stalemated in arm wrestle of the Force with Yoda seeming to get a slight upper hand before the energy exploded in which Yoda only fell because he only weighs like 30 pounds while Palpatine should weigh more than four times than that at bare minimum. Yoda only ran because he couldn't climb those pods again and fight all the Senate Guards, Clone Troopers (who killed Jedi masters in that same movie), and Palpatine all at the same time while already exhausted. Oh, and the balance of the Force shifted greatly to the Darkness giving Palpatine another advantage over Yoda and putting Yoda at another disadvantage. Remember Count Dooku estimated that a Dark Side Yoda would be more powerful than Palpatine in I think it was Yoda Dark Rendezvous and was given reason to believe he was already trained in it in that same book.

Count Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL) @Lord: I meant the Vaapad amp Mace gets against people like Palpatine and Vaapad won't really work against someone much calmer and more stable like Dooku. I'm well aware Palpatine isn't a cannon when his shield is up but if you can get through his defense and even land a basic punch or kick on him it will be more devastating to him than say if you did the same to Luke or Maul who have better physical strength and endurance compared to Palpatine.

Count Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL) You should reword it then, cause it sounds like you're saying Mace without Vaapad =< Sidious, which is very much untrue. And unless Sidious isn't paying attention, you're not getting through his Force wall. *And DE Sidious isn't even corporeal at his peak, so it doesn't even matter with him.*

Count Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL) What I'm trying to say is that Mace is a peer of Palpatine though slight inferior when not using his Vaapad amp (just normal Juyo) but could still contend with Palpatine and give him a hard time but he definitely couldn't beat him unless he does everything right and Palpatine makes a single mistake then Mace could theoretically take him out with Shatterpoint to take him out. I would estimate Clone Wars era Mace's Force strength to be so where between 90 and 80 precent of Palpatine with the potential to surpass him through Vaapad as seen in RotS. If that were the case then how were Starkiller, Vader, Luke, and Yoda able to land force attacks on him and does a Force Wall protect you from H2H combat, blasters, thrown objects, or lightsabers? And if you want to use the most powerful version of a character you have to take the good and bad of that version, you can't combine versions to get what you want either you use human Palpatine or clone Palpatine and live with the pros and cons of each.

Count Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL) I'd have to disagree with Mace being that strong without Vaapad, but whatever. And Yoda is relative to Sidious, so obviously he's going to be able to get past his Force wall. Sidious very clearly wasn't going all-out against Galen, and when have Vader and Luke ever gotten through Sidious' Force wall? And if you used the most powerful version of DE Sidious, you'd use the version that wasn't even in a physical form and was just a pure dark side nexus.

Count Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL) Then how strong would you estimate him to be w/o Vaapad's amp? Please explain.

Not going all out doesn't change how durable you are and Palpatine knew he had to move because like 20 senators who could (and did) destroy his empire were escaping and like I've tried to tell you numerous times: Palpatine isn't an idiot I mean he managed to take over a whole freaking galaxy just by scheming now plz prove that Palpatine was toying with Marek especially when Palps said himself that had Marek turned to the Dark Side he could have been his successor. Luke landed a Force Push in Dark Empire I #5 against a young and fresh clone of Palpatine and Vader landed a Force Push on him in Darth Vader and the 9th Assassin #2. Since when was Palpatine's soul considered a nexus of the Dark Side? I honestly want to know that and we can't use that in VS matches against people in physical form because that isn't really fair and in said matches it's a clone of Palpatine, if the clone dies Palpatine loses the fight.

Count Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL) Without Vaapad... perhaps around Dooku level? Since he has been portrayed as relative to Dooku in the past. Definitely not a peer of Sidious though. I don't have the source on this, but someone said it was stated that Vader, immediately after Mustafar, was still above Dooku, which would further show that Windu isn't a peer of Sidious. I don't have the source on that statement though, so don't quote me on that.

And yes, actually. If you are not trying your utmost, you can be harmed by things that you normally shouldn't. This is pretty common in fiction. For example, a weakened Naruto (while going all-out) was able to survive attacks from Momoshiki, who created a dimension with several stars in it. Now, a weakened, all-out Naruto has star level durability. But a healthy, off-guard Naruto got one-shot by his three-year old daughter, who's weaker than her brother that only has city block level feats. Sidious was very clearly toying with Marek, I've been over this before. He was doing his usual insane laugh, and Sidious at this point was more arrogant than ever.

DE Luke landed a Force push on a newly born Sidious, and it was stated that Sidious' power is constantly rising, so he wasn't at his peak there. Do you have scans of Vader breaking Sidious' Force wall?

And at the end of Dark Empire, Sidious ceased being a physical being and was just a dark side nexus. And it absolutely can be used in versus matches, a character simply needs non-physical interaction to be able to hit him. And several Force users have such a thing.

Count Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL) When have Windu and Dooku been consider equals? Also Dooku is a peer of Yoda who is at bare minimum at the worst lowball comparable to Palpatine and I find it noteworthy that Dooku fought Yoda fairy and still made it out alive while Palpatine caught Yoda at an advantage and only badly pulled a stalemate which means Dooku should also be comparable to Palps though just like Mace and Anakin a clear inferior. If you ever find that source then can you tell me that plz cause I really want to see that.

Do you have an example of that that doesn't come from anime which are known for Inconsistencies like Goku only being able to lift 100+ tons or same Goku being hurt by a bullet. Try something from comics or heck maybe some example from Star Wars. Just because the Emperor was laughing doesn't mean he was holding back, by that logic he was holding back against Yoda despite literally being scared of him. You've only been over this in inconclusive debates like our Luke vs Starkiller one. Again while he is arrogant he isn't dumb, I'm not sure how much I'll have to say that before you except it.

Where exactly did it say in that comic that Palps was getting stronger by the second? I do have a scan directly from the comic though I'm not sure how I can get it up here.

I know that. And if it is fair then how the heck is say Revan or Anakin supposed to do anything to that?

Count Dooku & Tulak Hord (SWL) They literally fought each other? And Dooku was casual the whole time? That's why they're relative (not equal). And Dooku really is not a peer of Yoda, he's very clearly beneath him and Sidious.

You cannot group every single anime together like that. Unless you can find an example from Naruto of these supposed inconsistencies, my analogy still works. Also Goku was only harmed by a bullet when he was explicitly holding back, so... And against Yoda, Sidious was not laughing the whole ass fight/a majority of the fight like he was against Galen. And I literally never said Sidious is dumb, that does not change that he's probably the most arrogant Sith of all time and arrogance has ALWAYS been a weakness of the Rule of Two and Pre-Rule of Two Sith. Even in Dark Empire, Sidious was the same arrogant b a s t a r d as always. In fact, arrogance has always been Sidious' downfall.

"Even now, as Luke appears to fall under the Emperor's ever-expanding power, massive engines of destruction are inflicting death blows to the floating cities of the Calamari, long-standing allies of the Rebel Alliance..."

"But the Emperor cannot be overcome so easily. He gives Leia a painful demonstration of his ever-expanding power, crowing in triumph that he has finally captured the last of the Jedi!"

"Yes, he grows continually more powerful in the way of the Dark Side."

Also DE Sidious was stated to have boundless power, further supporting that his power grows at a constant rate.

Revan and Anakin both canonically scale beneath DE Sidious, so...